Wayward Son explains the idea behind incentives for factionwar replacing forced fdow. 

This chatlog dates from the 8th November 2005

[08/11 - 19:26] <Wayward_Son> ok here is the deal. Neveron is broken. We are a persistant game where idle players can grow at incredible rates onces they reach a certain size. What we need is a game where active, smart and succesful players are the ones who achieve their goals more often than not. War is a big part of this, because it is war that this game was built around and war that, ike a forest fire, keeps things rotating and renewing.
[08/11 - 19:26] <Sid``> have you heard my ideas yet? Im up to #3
[08/11 - 19:26] * Xeolyte changes topic to 'WWS needs quiet.. :P || #neveron_changes - where Admins listen to players | Wayward, you should make this channel +nts so i can't change topic again'
[08/11 - 19:26] <Sid``> sorry
[08/11 - 19:27] <Wayward_Son> Forced FDOW was a drastic change, and some fairly drastic changes are needed.
[08/11 - 19:27] <Druthlen> how about if a empire hasnt had a dow in a certain time it becomes cheaper to attack thier zones
[08/11 - 19:27] <Bosso> shh
[08/11 - 19:27] <Death_Tornado> wouldnt change anything
[08/11 - 19:27] <Sid``> Let the man speak
[08/11 - 19:27] <Death_Tornado> its politics which stops waring
[08/11 - 19:27] <Wayward_Son> this alternative proposed this morning allows people more freedom, but stil accomplishes our end goals, that war is somethign that sooner or later everyone needs to contend with. All the concerns about money, growth rates, all that stuff are secondary. We can alter that stuff without a problem
[08/11 - 19:27] <Sid``> WW +m the chan
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[08/11 - 19:28] <Purgamen{cult}recruiting> hey ww qhat are industrial complexes for
[08/11 - 19:28] <Wayward_Son> but as you have seen over the past years, the changes have all been curbing growth because there is no war
[08/11 - 19:28] <Wayward_Son> there is nothing pulling units, infra, cash out of the game
[08/11 - 19:28] * XIBIOUS (df_xibious@207.7.237.136) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 19:28] <Wayward_Son> so we have to keep limiting it
[08/11 - 19:28] <Wayward_Son> whcih nobody likes
[08/11 - 19:28] <XIBIOUS> greetings
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[08/11 - 19:29] <Wayward_Son> we would rather INCREASE growth rates INCREASE income, etc. but to do this there needs to be in game systems that reward active players who are successful in conquest instead of rewarding empires that get big enough and know the right people and so never get touched
[08/11 - 19:29] <Ravill> i like the idea of increasing war but right now you need to make it cheaper to war and cheaper to rebuild if you lose a war
[08/11 - 19:29] <Sid``> shh
[08/11 - 19:29] <Desperado> quite let the man talk
[08/11 - 19:30] <Wayward_Son> so whatever the changes, they ned to accomplish those goals. That might mean your goal of achieving level 15 might be lost for good, but I think we need to question the point of the game
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[08/11 - 19:30] <XIBIOUS> Rav, war dont have to be cheaper, all we need is econimic boosts
[08/11 - 19:30] <XIBIOUS> economic
[08/11 - 19:30] <Wayward_Son> is the object the growth of imaginary tanks and buildings and income levels or is it an engaging, dynamic and most importantly CHALLENGING world where active players are rewarded?
[08/11 - 19:30] <Ravill> well i can't affford it cuase i have to much military and i hate to build
[08/11 - 19:30] * KD (KingDiamon@PMI241.UNI-MUENSTER.DE) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 19:30] <Ravill> lol
[08/11 - 19:30] * Gogilitan (Gogilitan@gogilitan.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 19:31] <Wayward_Son> so that is my piece. XIBIOUS it is not just about income, cause there are plenty of empires that make insane amounts of cash
[08/11 - 19:31] <Wayward_Son> and they dont fight
[08/11 - 19:31] * {TWI}Notorious raises hand, question for WW when he's done
[08/11 - 19:31] <Death_Tornado> for more war, need to be a way to prevent 5 empires jumping on one empire
[08/11 - 19:31] <Wayward_Son> so please, let us talk one at a time ina civil manner
[08/11 - 19:32] <mattbuck> I don't want to war at high level - it's way too much effort to expend and not very fun
[08/11 - 19:32] <XIBIOUS> yes but they're not balanced in all areas of defence and offence of their empires
[08/11 - 19:32] <Wayward_Son> so that we can all make something good come out of this
[08/11 - 19:32] <Wayward_Son> {TWI}Notorious why dont you go ahead
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[08/11 - 19:32] <Desperado> if you don't want to war at higher level then don't get to the higher lvl.
[08/11 - 19:32] <{TWI}Notorious> I have no problem with a war game requiring you to go to war. It's a war game. That said...
[08/11 - 19:32] <Death_Tornado> higher level war would be fun if it wasnt done with tanks and inf
[08/11 - 19:32] * MadT|afk changes topic to 'WWS needs quiet.. :P || #neveron_changes - where Admins listen to players | Wayward, you should make this channel +nts so i can't change topic again, hey me too'
[08/11 - 19:33] <Wayward_Son> please folks lets let {TWI}Notorious talk
[08/11 - 19:33] <{TWI}Notorious> I really think if you're gonna have FWARs, you need a grace period after the FWARs for the losers to rebuild.
[08/11 - 19:33] <Wayward_Son> ill moderate if i have to but would prefer not to
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[08/11 - 19:33] <{TWI}Notorious> Obviously, I'm in TWI. We have been FWARed twice in 72 hours. Right after a devastating defeat, how are we supposed to fight again???
[08/11 - 19:33] <Wayward_Son> {TWI}Notorious, yes. There is a change to that effect going in probably today.
[08/11 - 19:33] <{TWI}Notorious> Will it cancel the FWAR between UDC and TWI?
[08/11 - 19:34] <{TWI}Notorious> Cause we can't fight it. And unfightable wars are no fun.
[08/11 - 19:34] <XIBIOUS> Querry here
[08/11 - 19:35] <{TWI}Notorious> Also, I really think that at higher levels, you shouldn't be able to attack within 10 spots on the faction rankings. 10 ranks can be a HUGE difference at the top of a chart. Make it percentage based or something to decide who you FDOW.
[08/11 - 19:35] <{TWI}Notorious> Just my two cents. I'm done.
[08/11 - 19:35] <Wayward_Son> ok i really want to talk about the big picture of the game and war. I know you are in a bind {TWI}Notorious but that isn't the topic right now. If you play defense and make them fight for it they will have a hard time and I wish you luck with it. remember that before you would have gotten hit by both factions at once instead of one at a tiem
[08/11 - 19:35] <Wayward_Son> ok Death_Tornado I think you were next
[08/11 - 19:35] <{TWI}Notorious> I am talking big picture, just using a specific example that's near and dear to me WW.
[08/11 - 19:35] <Death_Tornado> im just listening for now
[08/11 - 19:35] * Gunner raises his hand
[08/11 - 19:36] <Wayward_Son> shoot Gunnern
[08/11 - 19:36] <Gunner> whee
[08/11 - 19:36] <XIBIOUS> hey, i had a querry
[08/11 - 19:36] * Gogilitan raises his hand too ;)
[08/11 - 19:36] <Gunner> Ok, I think Hobbit's idea is great
[08/11 - 19:36] <Gunner> Lots of good ideas in there
[08/11 - 19:36] <Gunner> It may need some tweaking by you guys to make it balanced, but it is far superior to possibly having Nev decide you are gonna FDOW your best friend
[08/11 - 19:37] <Gunner> It rewards the active LWers
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[08/11 - 19:37] <Gunner> gives the not so active people time to get a war going
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[08/11 - 19:37] <Gunner> and slowly penalizes them if they dont
[08/11 - 19:37] <Xeolyte> If you reward active lwers - then they will have more cash right?
[08/11 - 19:37] <Gunner> they deserve it
[08/11 - 19:37] <Xeolyte> and if they have more cash then they can lw more
[08/11 - 19:37] <Xeolyte> but
[08/11 - 19:38] <Wayward_Son> yes Gunner, and that is part of why we proposed the change that randy mentioned earlier. But the important thing is that eventually you are going to need to fight. Active warriors get rewarded even under teh old system. active warriors are gonna be happy with about anything, it is mostly the people who dont want to fght under any circumstances that are making the biggest stink
[08/11 - 19:38] <Gunner> the point is to promote LW
[08/11 - 19:38] <Xeolyte> that creates an untouchable group of people
[08/11 - 19:38] <Xeolyte> which isnt so great
[08/11 - 19:38] * KD thinks that active duelers should be rewarded as well, because that might just give a little life back to the poor arena system
[08/11 - 19:38] <Gunner> WW the biggest problem we have is that RNG is gonna decide when we fight, and perhaps who we fight
[08/11 - 19:38] <Wayward_Son> the change randy mentioned this morning is simliar to hobbits idea. Basically the further you get from your last war the more you are penalized
[08/11 - 19:38] <Gunner> yes
[08/11 - 19:38] <Gunner> that's good
[08/11 - 19:38] <Gunner> we were fine with that
[08/11 - 19:38] <Wayward_Son> ok so you are generally supportive of the idea that randy put out earlier?
[08/11 - 19:38] <Gunner> yes
[08/11 - 19:39] <Wayward_Son> cool thanks
[08/11 - 19:39] <Gunner> it may need some tweaking as I said, which is the point of discussion
[08/11 - 19:39] <Wayward_Son> absolutely
[08/11 - 19:39] <hobbit|afk> WW - I asked randy to consider making it start with bonuses immedaitely after an fwar
[08/11 - 19:39] <Wayward_Son> and to be expected
[08/11 - 19:39] <Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE}> My only problem is the login says "Build your empire through near-limitless possibilities from military conquest to peaceful economic growth."
[08/11 - 19:39] <Gunner> oh not that again
[08/11 - 19:39] <hobbit|afk> have those taper off
[08/11 - 19:39] <Ravill> what was the idea put out earlier?
[08/11 - 19:39] <Gunner> if you sell a tank you grew peacefully
[08/11 - 19:39] * Hellspwan askes if he can PM an idea rather than a ticket
[08/11 - 19:39] <hobbit|afk> and then have the penalties start
[08/11 - 19:39] <XIBIOUS> change the adds
[08/11 - 19:39] * KD raises his hand
[08/11 - 19:39] <Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE}> and I have build peacefully for nearly 5 years... true I'm not even lvl 10 but I've been very active in arena's and maintained peace in LW
[08/11 - 19:39] <Wayward_Son> yes hobbit|afk that is certainly possible, and as I said giving people bonuses for actually fighting is not an issue
[08/11 - 19:40] <Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE}> 6 years now
[08/11 - 19:40] <Gunner> This is not the place for that discussion
[08/11 - 19:40] <Wayward_Son> there will be plenty of it, and there is plenty now
[08/11 - 19:40] <Splurch> Two of the biggest problems with the current war systems is gang bangs and recovery. Yes, gangbangs are realistic, yes they are effective but they stop people from fighting because no one wants to be gangbanged and take losses that will take months to recover. If war was more
[08/11 - 19:40] <hobbit|afk> that would help reward active war factions, and also help the losers rebuild
[08/11 - 19:40] <Splurch> on a 1v1 (or multiple smaller empires) scale it would be more dependent on your skill and your bpers rather then how many people with empires in range you know. In regards for recovery, taking months on months to recover from a loss is no fun. People are scared to lw because they
[08/11 - 19:40] <Splurch> know a loss will take them an insane amount of time to recover from. No one wants to fight a week or longer just to spend the next few months getting back to where they were.
[08/11 - 19:40] <Wayward_Son> ok Spurch is up
[08/11 - 19:40] <hobbit|afk> apparently ;)
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[08/11 - 19:40] <Splurch> heh heh ;)
[08/11 - 19:40] * Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE} raises hand and waits her turn....
[08/11 - 19:40] <Xeolyte> i agree with what Splurch says.
[08/11 - 19:40] <XIBIOUS> id like to say 1) ive been told im a very vocal opponate to things in nev, and I do LW fairly often, just to set the record straight
[08/11 - 19:41] <Ravill> WWS what was the idea put out earlier
[08/11 - 19:41] <Li_Ra|nottalking> You should be able to have peace as long as other members in your faction allow you to have it by fighitng on your behalf. But like WW said, something needs to be done about these huge empires who never fight. Cough SoL Cough.
[08/11 - 19:41] <Wayward_Son> folks please hang on, splurch is talking atm
[08/11 - 19:41] <Druthlen> WW we need order ppl are talking out of turn
[08/11 - 19:41] <Splurch> If recover were made easier, like a system for troops where they lose skill but gain it back easier, so that lost buildings built faster/cheaper (or even lost cities in new locations), people wouldnt be so scared of recover.
[08/11 - 19:41] <Ravill> or mod the channe;
[08/11 - 19:41] <Splurch> I know there are still a few empires recovering from the CBS-HOC war from a year ago
[08/11 - 19:42] <Gunner> Yes, a building damaged should be able to be fixed faster then starting a brand new one for instance
[08/11 - 19:42] <Splurch> They werent in the best shape when the war started, but they still arent back to what they were
[08/11 - 19:42] <Wayward_Son> Splurch that system for troops to regain lost skills is in place. and currently the losses from war are hard to rebuild from because there is so little war
[08/11 - 19:42] <Wayward_Son> as i said, if war wasa a reality for all empires, then we would happily speed things up
[08/11 - 19:42] <Splurch> I know, Im just referencing the troop skill as an idea for buildings
[08/11 - 19:42] <Splurch> maybe a memory or so for cities
[08/11 - 19:42] <Splurch> so if the original owner still owns their city, it is easier to replace the destroyed buildings from it switching hands so many times
[08/11 - 19:43] <Wayward_Son> but if the only thing keeping level 11's from getting to level 13 is the building curve of th3e game instead of player activity and fighting, then we have problem
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[08/11 - 19:43] <hobbit|afk> That was part of my proposal, more or less, Splurch - giving the fwar participants economic boosts for 3 months and the losers BP boosts as well
[08/11 - 19:43] <Wayward_Son> that is a possibility
[08/11 - 19:43] <Xeolyte> you could have a variable building speed multipler according to your level.
[08/11 - 19:43] <Splurch> If I didnt have to fear gang bangs or taking months to recover, even I might do some warring now and then.
[08/11 - 19:43] <Gunner> that's a great idea, people need to do that first war to get the benefits to do the next one
[08/11 - 19:43] <Wayward_Son> teh thing is that you really shouldnt be able to rebuild fully from a lost war
[08/11 - 19:43] <Xeolyte> lower = higher multiplier
[08/11 - 19:43] <Splurch> The people who have big empires fear losing them
[08/11 - 19:43] <Splurch> you need to work on removing that fear
[08/11 - 19:43] <Splurch> Then war will pick up
[08/11 - 19:44] <hobbit|afk> wayward - I have to disagree - you should eventually be able to recover
[08/11 - 19:44] <Wayward_Son> success and empire gains/faction gains should come more from real war. big empires run by inactive people *should* eventually shrink if their players and factionmates can't support them
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[08/11 - 19:44] <hobbit|afk> and recover enough in the short term to wage your next war
[08/11 - 19:45] <Gunner> eventually yes, but look at real life. When France lost every war in it's history, it took decades to rebuild
[08/11 - 19:45] <_3BHatesNev> hehehe
[08/11 - 19:45] <Logres[AMI]selling_11_and_8> hey, Wayward, are you and Randy Democrats?
[08/11 - 19:45] <_3BHatesNev> Gunner is france
[08/11 - 19:45] <Wayward_Son> look if I am level 5 and I fight a couple level 5's and get to level 6 and then get hit by a level 6, it sholdnt just be assuemd that I will be able to regrow to level 6 easily
[08/11 - 19:45] <Wayward_Son> i should need to fight some level 5's again
[08/11 - 19:45] * {WoB}Chetter (Chetter@66.30.30.62) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 19:45] <{WoB}Chetter> hello all
[08/11 - 19:45] <Gunner> shhh stop talking about Chet
[08/11 - 19:45] <Wayward_Son> if i'm level 11 it should be the same way
[08/11 - 19:45] <Gunner> yes
[08/11 - 19:45] <hobbit|afk> agreed
[08/11 - 19:46] <Gunner> It took chet a long ass time to rebuild WoB
[08/11 - 19:46] <Wayward_Son> if I lose a war it shouldnt just be assumed in a couple momths ill be back to where I was
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[08/11 - 19:46] <_3BHatesNev> I agree at lower levels that is the case - but 25% of a higher level takes a while to replace
[08/11 - 19:46] <Wayward_Son> my best bet should be to *win* a couple wars
[08/11 - 19:46] * KD raises his hand and would like to make two short points
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[08/11 - 19:46] <Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE}> empire vs empire war is something completely different from FDOW though... and I think could be looked at better than FFDOW's
[08/11 - 19:46] <{WoB}Chetter> WW took me a year to get back to were I was
[08/11 - 19:46] <Logres[AMI]selling_11_and_8> because my simplest arguement against Random, Forced FDoW is this: You and Randy take the countenance of the "George W. Bushes" of Neveron.........no insult intended, just an analogy
[08/11 - 19:46] <Wayward_Son> in which case I'd be gainign 255
[08/11 - 19:46] <Wayward_Son> 25%
[08/11 - 19:46] * _3BHatesNev is now known as Thirdborn
[08/11 - 19:46] <Gunner> if your economy gets gutted, it should take a long time to fix
[08/11 - 19:46] <{WoB}Chetter> and I only lost 19% of wob at the time
[08/11 - 19:46] <Sid``> guys, LET THE PEOPLE TALK pretty please
[08/11 - 19:47] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +m
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> ok hang on folks
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> for the new peeps we are talking one at a time
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> i dont want to have to moderate
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> and we arent talking about random FDOWs
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> we are talking about the greater vision of groth war and the game
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> we all agree that random fdows suk
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> suck
[08/11 - 19:47] * Dakkon is now known as Dakkon|away
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> so lets move on
[08/11 - 19:47] <Wayward_Son> right now we are discussing war/growth/rebuilding
[08/11 - 19:48] <Wayward_Son> and splurch has the floor
[08/11 - 19:48] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -m
[08/11 - 19:48] <Wayward_Son> thanks
[08/11 - 19:48] <Logres[AMI]selling_11_and_8> that's my main objection, I re-enlist on Friday for a $20K bonus................................you draw your own conclusions...............thanks for eliminating Random FDoW........ ;)
[08/11 - 19:48] <Splurch> Higher level empires dont attack because if they get butchered they will take a long, long time getting anywhere near where they were.
[08/11 - 19:48] <Logres[AMI]selling_11_and_8> how's that for possible growth?
[08/11 - 19:48] <Wayward_Son> if your name isnt splurch then shut up :)
[08/11 - 19:48] <Wayward_Son> please :)
[08/11 - 19:48] <Splurch> No one wants to fight for a few weeks and spend the next year recovering.
[08/11 - 19:48] * Sid`` is now known as Sid-raisedhand
[08/11 - 19:48] <Splurch> So instead of fighting, they just sit and build.
[08/11 - 19:49] * hobbit|afk raises his hand
[08/11 - 19:49] <Splurch> Because its safe and you dont have to worry about being set back a great deal of effort.
[08/11 - 19:49] * Gunner raises his hand after Hobbit
[08/11 - 19:49] <Splurch> Go for it hobbit
[08/11 - 19:49] <Wayward_Son> Splurch thats how it is now, its easier to recover by sitting nd buiding at high levels. if they went to war instead they should get back on their feet much faster. We are going to make it very cheap to fight within a FDOW
[08/11 - 19:49] * Gogilitan raises after gunner (though it was raised before)
[08/11 - 19:49] <mattbuck> may I just suggest that wayward nominate a moderator who people PM questions to, and who then pastes them in chat?
[08/11 - 19:49] <Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE}> I'd like to propose more work into the class system.. I really thought that was a great idea, but it seems to be sidelined and wanting everyone to become a warrior... I really think this game doesn't need to be 100% LW which if it does, then you'll likely lose me as a player.. I like to build and talk... even if my building isALOT slower by not LWing
[08/11 - 19:49] <Wayward_Son> building as the sole method of recovery SHOULD tak ea long ass time to rebuild
[08/11 - 19:50] <Wayward_Son> if you lsoe 25% in war you should go war and gain 25%
[08/11 - 19:50] <hobbit|afk> Main detriment to war at high levels is that it takes too long and is too tedious
[08/11 - 19:50] <{WoB}Chetter> you cant WW
[08/11 - 19:50] <Wayward_Son> Gogilitan was next
[08/11 - 19:50] <{WoB}Chetter> 25% is easier to get then 25% army
[08/11 - 19:50] <Splurch> But people arent going to want to war more if they have just lost
[08/11 - 19:50] <Logres[AMI]selling_11_and_8> WW, I'll moderate if you like
[08/11 - 19:50] <{WoB}Chetter> 25% infra
[08/11 - 19:50] <hobbit|afk> splurch handed me the mic 8^P
[08/11 - 19:50] <Gogilitan> Ah, well if I've got the floor...
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[08/11 - 19:50] <Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE}> I totally agree with the penalties for not having a LW in say a few months if you are a warrior based empire... but I don't think the same penalties should be implied to a merchant, builder or a scientist
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[08/11 - 19:50] <Splurch> Think about it, they just lost a war, why would they want to risk even more of their empire?
[08/11 - 19:50] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +m
[08/11 - 19:50] <Wayward_Son> *sigh
[08/11 - 19:51] <Wayward_Son> it was working so well too :)
[08/11 - 19:51] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v Gogilitan
[08/11 - 19:51] <Gogilitan> on the subject of FDoW's and the way factions are ranked
[08/11 - 19:51] <Gogilitan> currently its done by total faction population
[08/11 - 19:51] <Wayward_Son> yes
[08/11 - 19:52] <Gogilitan> that doesnt necessarily always mean equal
[08/11 - 19:52] <Wayward_Son> it should probably be a combination of BV and civpop
[08/11 - 19:52] <Wayward_Son> as are empires
[08/11 - 19:52] <Gogilitan> probably, but that also doesnt always equal
[08/11 - 19:53] <Gogilitan> a higher level empire could stomp a couple of lower levels, even if their pop/bv are equal
[08/11 - 19:53] <Wayward_Son> ok well your point is taken, the faction ladder needs to be reassessed to make sure that factions are better matched
[08/11 - 19:53] <Gogilitan> ok ;)
[08/11 - 19:53] <Wayward_Son> though some inequality will always be the case
[08/11 - 19:53] <Wayward_Son> thanks :)
[08/11 - 19:53] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -v Gogilitan
[08/11 - 19:53] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v XIBIOUS
[08/11 - 19:53] * Logres[AMI]selling_11_and_8 is now known as Logres[AMI]
[08/11 - 19:53] <XIBIOUS> 1) new changes to fwar in protecting a faction after a loss, PLEASE take note of the ones that take EXTREME advantage of the LW system, mainly rox, anything you do should be rox proofed
[08/11 - 19:53] <XIBIOUS> 2) economic boosts can be anything from an increased in transfers and income sales boosts to a fund to recover, like a real forgein aide or FEMA
[08/11 - 19:53] <XIBIOUS> 3) In times of war if someone dows u or someone fdows u, then you should have higher transfer limits, since your the defender
[08/11 - 19:53] <XIBIOUS> 4)deffender class should be increased so people can put troops on the ground to help defned, will help to lessen GBs
[08/11 - 19:54] <Wayward_Son> that was discussed this morning in our meeting XIBIOUS, empires will be getting double transfer limits within the faction during FDOW
[08/11 - 19:55] <XIBIOUS> and rox proofing ???
[08/11 - 19:55] <XIBIOUS> i dow rox, he fdows someone else
[08/11 - 19:55] <Wayward_Son> economic boosts will come as war increases. As i said though the quickest gains should always be from war. Losing a war should mean a solid setback for a faction. winning one shoudl be a step forward. Successful factions will take two steps forward and one step back
[08/11 - 19:55] <Wayward_Son> we al need to lsoe sometimes
[08/11 - 19:55] <XIBIOUS> he fdows, one after another like cfy aka tribe
[08/11 - 19:55] <Wayward_Son> all*
[08/11 - 19:55] <Wayward_Son> what is wrong with that exactly?
[08/11 - 19:56] <Wayward_Son> they are always fighting legitmate wars from what I can see
[08/11 - 19:56] <XIBIOUS> you cant hit him
[08/11 - 19:56] <XIBIOUS> he picks on weak prey all the time
[08/11 - 19:56] <Wayward_Son> so you think the faction ladder and who you can fdow needs to be tightened up
[08/11 - 19:56] <XIBIOUS> when he's in trouble he cancels your dow on him with a fdow on someone else
[08/11 - 19:56] <XIBIOUS> yes
[08/11 - 19:57] <XIBIOUS> and a FL surrendered cant fdow during that surrender
[08/11 - 19:57] <Wayward_Son> cancels your fdow?
[08/11 - 19:57] <XIBIOUS> cancels your DOW with a fwar on someone else
[08/11 - 19:57] <Wayward_Son> right
[08/11 - 19:57] <Wayward_Son> you need to FDOW him :)
[08/11 - 19:58] <XIBIOUS> my empire can take his, but his faction is larger than mine
[08/11 - 19:58] <XIBIOUS> so fwar isnt an option, we are out of range as well
[08/11 - 19:58] <Wayward_Son> im not gong to penalize people for being on the offensive, but I will certainly look into tighetning up the system of who you can FDOW. your situation is intended though. Factions are expected to be cast into a lot together
[08/11 - 19:58] <Wayward_Son> it sounds to me like you ned to beef up your faction and kick his butt :)
[08/11 - 19:58] <XIBIOUS> easy way to win a fwar is to have many more lvls of empires
[08/11 - 19:59] <Wayward_Son> enough about rox though. your point is taken XIBIOUS and thank you for your contribution
[08/11 - 19:59] <XIBIOUS> k
[08/11 - 19:59] <XIBIOUS> im done\
[08/11 - 19:59] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v hobbit|afk
[08/11 - 19:59] <hobbit|afk> ty
[08/11 - 19:59] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -v XIBIOUS
[08/11 - 19:59] <hobbit|afk> two points, if I may
[08/11 - 20:00] <hobbit|afk> first on the subject of rebuilding
[08/11 - 20:00] <hobbit|afk> with the current penalties that are in place for the loser of a fwar
[08/11 - 20:00] <hobbit|afk> and the economic devastation from negative morale that usually accompanies that
[08/11 - 20:01] <hobbit|afk> it takes a very long time to get to the point where you can even wage a war against someone of your new (lower) level again
[08/11 - 20:01] <Wayward_Son> while hobbit is talking i just want to throw this back out there for people. The system we discussed going to today was one where Faction Wars were decided not by the number of levels surrendered, but by taking 25% of the losing faction's civpop/bv. This would ensure that faction leaders were involved in war, and would allow us to focus on that.
[08/11 - 20:01] * Hellspwan (Hellspwan@24-176-90-093.dhcp.hckr.nc.charter.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
[08/11 - 20:01] <Wayward_Son> we would remove the 25% vehicle loss if you arent involved since you would almost certainly need to be involved
[08/11 - 20:01] <Wayward_Son> increase transfer limits
[08/11 - 20:02] <Wayward_Son> and be able to focus war around small empires defnding the bigger ones
[08/11 - 20:02] <Wayward_Son> which is probably how it should be
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[08/11 - 20:02] <Wayward_Son> hobbit|afk do you think that reducing war costs within an fdow would alleviate that?
[08/11 - 20:02] <hobbit|afk> no
[08/11 - 20:02] <Wayward_Son> i mean if war were almost free to fight within an fdow
[08/11 - 20:02] <hobbit|afk> not alone
[08/11 - 20:03] <Wayward_Son> you woldnt need much moeny to do it
[08/11 - 20:03] <Wayward_Son> an then get back on your feet
[08/11 - 20:03] <hobbit|afk> you still need money for troop movement, repairs, mobilization, etc
[08/11 - 20:03] <hobbit|afk> mob costs get huge at upper levels
[08/11 - 20:03] <hobbit|afk> and if your income is shattered from neg morale, you are in a bad spot
[08/11 - 20:04] <hobbit|afk> and when your faction has lost an fwar, none of your factionmates are in shape to help out
[08/11 - 20:04] <Wayward_Son> well we are going to need to take a wait and see on that. As I've said multiple times we will be happy to inject more money into the game if people are actually fighting. That is certainly something we will be watching, but as was stated earlier war should probably be your easiest and qucikest option to a fast economic recovery.
[08/11 - 20:04] <Wayward_Son> mob costs and whatnot are all changable
[08/11 - 20:05] <Wayward_Son> and if that is the issue then we can change them
[08/11 - 20:05] <Wayward_Son> money is easy
[08/11 - 20:05] <hobbit|afk> agreed, but fwar losers are unable to effectively wage their next war- that is my first point
[08/11 - 20:05] <Wayward_Son> it is the greater vision of fighting that is the tough part
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[08/11 - 20:05] <hobbit|afk> my second, larger point
[08/11 - 20:05] <Wayward_Son> people coming to terms with that fact that they will need to either attack or defend, and that sooner or later they will lose
[08/11 - 20:05] <Wayward_Son> and it will set them back
[08/11 - 20:05] <hobbit|afk> is that high level LW is too time-consuming and tedious
[08/11 - 20:05] <hobbit|afk> and THAT, imho, is the main reason those empires war infrequently
[08/11 - 20:05] <Wayward_Son> yes that is something that we have been doing a lot of talking about
[08/11 - 20:06] <hobbit|afk> there are many good options for fixing that
[08/11 - 20:06] <Wayward_Son> but to be honest a lot fo those players were saying that when they were level 9
[08/11 - 20:06] <hobbit|afk> well, I'll tell you that I enjoy warring with my L7/8 lw emp
[08/11 - 20:06] * Mithrander[AMI] (Mithrander@mithrander666.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:06] <hobbit|afk> but I don't enjoy it with my L12
[08/11 - 20:07] <Wayward_Son> yes, I am very excited about a lot of them. and by changing fwar to be 25% of a faction civpop/bv instead of 50% of faction levels we will be encouraging more large empire war and will force us to focus on how that can be more fun and more reliable.
[08/11 - 20:07] <hobbit|afk> right now high level warfare is almost exclusively IDF and speedbumps
[08/11 - 20:07] <hobbit|afk> I just would like to caution you and Randy about the order you are implementing things, WW
[08/11 - 20:08] <Wayward_Son> do you think some zone retreat restrictions (like how quickly units can retreat from a zone after attacking) and forced abr would alleviate that
[08/11 - 20:08] * John_Church (Macky-Z@FlippMoke.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:08] <hobbit|afk> you are putting in the disincentives for peace
[08/11 - 20:08] <hobbit|afk> before the incentives to war
[08/11 - 20:08] <hobbit|afk> forced abr would help
[08/11 - 20:08] <hobbit|afk> terrain smoothing would help
[08/11 - 20:08] <Wayward_Son> there are a lot of incentives to war, they just arent enough for the empire builders to get into it.
[08/11 - 20:08] <hobbit|afk> having IDF fire during the move phase, with artillery filght times would help
[08/11 - 20:08] <Wayward_Son> so nerfing IDF
[08/11 - 20:09] <hobbit|afk> in a sense
[08/11 - 20:09] * Loremaster_Rianna_Rose{RRE} is now known as RiannaRose-raised-hand
[08/11 - 20:09] <hobbit|afk> I'd be ok with it having long range and big damage if it had flight times
[08/11 - 20:09] * Terrettes_E (Prinz_Esca@AC947A3B.ipt.aol.com) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:09] <Wayward_Son> ok
[08/11 - 20:09] * RiannaRose-raised-hand is now known as Rianna_raised-hand
[08/11 - 20:09] <hobbit|afk> and firing during move phase means snipers have to position to fire
[08/11 - 20:10] <Wayward_Son> i need to move on to some other peeps, but your points are well taken
[08/11 - 20:10] <Wayward_Son> thanks
[08/11 - 20:10] <hobbit|afk> yw
[08/11 - 20:10] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -v hobbit|afk
[08/11 - 20:10] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v Sid-raisedhand
[08/11 - 20:10] <Sid-raisedhand> ty WW
[08/11 - 20:10] <Wayward_Son> ill take chet after this
[08/11 - 20:10] <Wayward_Son> then Rianna_raised-hand
[08/11 - 20:10] <Wayward_Son> and Terrettes_E
[08/11 - 20:10] <Sid-raisedhand> as to war costs for lower lvl empires...
[08/11 - 20:11] <Sid-raisedhand> my lvl5 is only lacking in money to keep attacking people
[08/11 - 20:11] * Gunner is now known as Gunner_Wavinghandswildly
[08/11 - 20:11] <Sid-raisedhand> and most of money is going down the drain to movement of troops
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[08/11 - 20:11] <Sid-raisedhand> I suggested no movement cost for mobilized units
[08/11 - 20:12] <Wayward_Son> right. which is partially intended. as stated, war will be getting cheaper within fation war, and we may scale prices more based on levels, but smaller empires need some good protections and money is one way of doing that
[08/11 - 20:12] <Sid-raisedhand> I am already paying for them
[08/11 - 20:12] <Sid-raisedhand> A low level empire is penalized by this I feel
[08/11 - 20:12] <Wayward_Son> all in all small empire war is pretty solid. It is more large scale faction war, like top 100 factions that I am concerned about.
[08/11 - 20:12] <Sid-raisedhand> my second point
[08/11 - 20:13] * Rianna_raised-hand (user@cpe-24-166-13-8.indy.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[08/11 - 20:13] <Sid-raisedhand> TWI's first FWAR was a losing one from the start, and something UDC didnt want
[08/11 - 20:13] <Sid-raisedhand> it was random
[08/11 - 20:13] <Sid-raisedhand> UDC's faction had 2x the pop and 2x the bv
[08/11 - 20:13] <Sid-raisedhand> which is rediculous
[08/11 - 20:13] <Wayward_Son> right, and we are looking at alternatives to the random FDOW and a tightening of the FWAR and faction ladder have been discussed
[08/11 - 20:14] <Sid-raisedhand> thirdly
[08/11 - 20:14] <Sid-raisedhand> I am going to issue a sorta Neveron Maniseto I am working on
[08/11 - 20:14] <Wayward_Son> Manifesto?
[08/11 - 20:14] <Sid-raisedhand> to remember the days when I start playing this game 3 years ago
[08/11 - 20:14] <Sid-raisedhand> I would like more 1vs1
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[08/11 - 20:15] <Sid-raisedhand> Sort of rule or guildbook to playing nev
[08/11 - 20:15] <Sid-raisedhand> and maybe make this place (a little) more chivilrous (sp)
[08/11 - 20:15] <Wayward_Son> that would be great
[08/11 - 20:15] <Wayward_Son> i cant hardcode the culture of the game, and I have played many games where amy of the rules were simply ones players and decided upon themselves
[08/11 - 20:16] <Sid-raisedhand> I want more war on my level
[08/11 - 20:16] * Sparhawk (x@ip64-38-166-62.adsl.versatel.nl) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:16] <Wayward_Son> as far as who can attack who and when that is appropriate
[08/11 - 20:16] <Wayward_Son> wars were typically declared beforehand in the open
[08/11 - 20:16] <Wayward_Son> and even scheduled
[08/11 - 20:16] <Sid-raisedhand> little empires who want to LW shouldnt be squished by someone like 3rd nev com
[08/11 - 20:16] <Wayward_Son> and while ongoing were nasty and brutal
[08/11 - 20:16] <Sid-raisedhand> and I would like hard coded protections
[08/11 - 20:16] <Wayward_Son> but afterwards people pretty much walked away respecting each other
[08/11 - 20:17] <Wayward_Son> Sid-raisedhand we have discussed limiting reglar DOWs to only empires that your faction can FDOW. Does that seem appropriate to you?
[08/11 - 20:17] <Sid-raisedhand> people that only have a few hours a day, and maybe the weekends to play shouldnt have to hand over their logins to others for their protection
[08/11 - 20:17] <Sid-raisedhand> no
[08/11 - 20:17] <Sid-raisedhand> Fwar is BRUTAL
[08/11 - 20:18] <Wayward_Son> which is why there are player logins with permissions, including full ECO permissions. it is also why people should consider limiting their empire size to what they can maange
[08/11 - 20:18] <Sid-raisedhand> It's like a hammer to an egg
[08/11 - 20:18] * BearClaw (Java@D-128-208-114-108.dhcp4.washington.edu) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:18] <Wayward_Son> no Sid-raisedhand, you dont understand. You can DOW anyone within range your factions FDOW
[08/11 - 20:18] * Khan_Jacob_Ward (ElDiablo@dy254198.resnet.uky.edu) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:18] <Wayward_Son> but nobody outside that range
[08/11 - 20:18] <Sid-raisedhand> faction size? or empire size
[08/11 - 20:18] * John_Church is now known as Church_HORRIBLE_IDEA
[08/11 - 20:18] <Wayward_Son> so level 2's in top 10 factions would need to fight other level 2's in top 10 factions
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> thats the way it is now
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> right?
[08/11 - 20:19] <Wayward_Son> no
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> o
[08/11 - 20:19] <Wayward_Son> any level 2 can DOW any level 2
[08/11 - 20:19] * Li_Ra|nottalking is now known as Li_Ra|getsomeoneelse
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> oooo
[08/11 - 20:19] * Li_Ra|getsomeoneelse is now known as Li_Ra
[08/11 - 20:19] * KD is now known as KD-raised_hand
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> youre talking outside of FWar??
[08/11 - 20:19] <Wayward_Son> ok time to move on
[08/11 - 20:19] <Wayward_Son> yes Sid-raisedhand
[08/11 - 20:19] <Wayward_Son> outide of fwar
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> oic
[08/11 - 20:19] <Wayward_Son> thanks for your suggestions
[08/11 - 20:19] * Church_HORRIBLE_IDEA is now known as John_Church
[08/11 - 20:19] <Sid-raisedhand> np
[08/11 - 20:19] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -v Sid-raisedhand
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[08/11 - 20:19] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v {WoB}Chetter
[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> hello all
[08/11 - 20:20] <Wayward_Son> if an idea has been mentioned please dont say it again
[08/11 - 20:20] <Wayward_Son> it will save us alot of time :)
[08/11 - 20:20] <Wayward_Son> and please try to stick to one main point
[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> 1 sec
[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> ok here it is
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[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> I am gonna win 1 fwar
[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> I will lose 4
[08/11 - 20:20] * Sid-raisedhand is now known as Sid``
[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> and when those conclude I will be targeted again in all of them
[08/11 - 20:20] <{WoB}Chetter> the loss of fwars is to heavy
[08/11 - 20:21] <{WoB}Chetter> and having the fear of fighting random is all thats driving them
[08/11 - 20:21] * Logres[AMI] is now known as Logres[AMI]Hand_Up
[08/11 - 20:21] <Wayward_Son> chet
[08/11 - 20:21] <Wayward_Son> we are way beyonf random fwar
[08/11 - 20:21] <{WoB}Chetter> we must remove random fwar from the game
[08/11 - 20:21] <Wayward_Son> beyond*
[08/11 - 20:21] <{WoB}Chetter> 1 sec ww
[08/11 - 20:21] <Wayward_Son> please read al the stuff above
[08/11 - 20:21] <{WoB}Chetter> I am going somewhere
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[08/11 - 20:21] <{WoB}Chetter> fwar cant be fixed
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> and to sufggest that it can is akin to fruad on the part of the admins
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> we donate for units
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> we can lose
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> and have empires that up till now were based on game machanics
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> being big was good
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> but when TWI surrendered it lost 25% of it vecs and 4 DP only mechs
[08/11 - 20:22] <{WoB}Chetter> with only a 3% chance of loss
[08/11 - 20:23] <Wayward_Son> the 25% will be taken out chet
[08/11 - 20:23] <{WoB}Chetter> you now suggest a 25% faction civ bv loss to surrender
[08/11 - 20:23] <{WoB}Chetter> which is so much worse its rediculas
[08/11 - 20:23] <{WoB}Chetter> I wont play knowing every time someone is done beating me up someone else will take his spot and Ill have nothing I can do to stop it
[08/11 - 20:23] <Wayward_Son> for a whole faction. In TWI's case that would have been about the same but they would have had to fight the fation leader for it
[08/11 - 20:24] <Wayward_Son> so what do you think about the previously mentioned FDOW surrender time?
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> and if the 25% is gonna be taken out will TWI be compinsated
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> I wasnt here for it
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> I was a late arrival
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> but anything that fixs or improves Forced fwar is wrong and not the cure
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> its like decapitation to cure a common cold
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> its nice he isnt sick anymore
[08/11 - 20:24] <{WoB}Chetter> but hes still dead
[08/11 - 20:25] <{WoB}Chetter> fwars Im all for fixing
[08/11 - 20:25] <Wayward_Son> so what do you suggest Chetter. the game has a grave illness of rewarding inactive large empires.
[08/11 - 20:25] <{WoB}Chetter> since they are a part of the game
[08/11 - 20:25] <{WoB}Chetter> Im saying you as admins have no right forceing interaction
[08/11 - 20:25] <{WoB}Chetter> you must never play your own game. Have you any clue how much sleep and work I have missed in the last week
[08/11 - 20:25] <{WoB}Chetter> I cant keep this up
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> it takes to damn long
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> stop penilizing players for wanting to play there own way
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> and
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> we need to remember those large empires rebuild the smaller ones
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> if you keep hammering at the big ones you will have even slower growth
[08/11 - 20:26] <Wayward_Son> so if a player wants to log in once a day, tool his factories and make $1 billion a real day and continue growing that is fine
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> who do you think encourages and helps the newbs
[08/11 - 20:26] <Wayward_Son> and we should just let that happen for eternity?
[08/11 - 20:26] <{WoB}Chetter> yep
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> its none of your business
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> he paid you for what he has
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[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> stop telling him how to play
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> if someone wants to fwar
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> him
[08/11 - 20:27] * Khan_Jacob_Ward (ElDiablo@dy254198.resnet.uky.edu) Quit (Ping timeout)
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> thats fine
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> he will get his ass drudged
[08/11 - 20:27] <{WoB}Chetter> but at least it was the admins that forced the war
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> because my lost time and producrtivity is because of you guys directly
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> I cant keep up
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> Im supposed to be campaigning as today is mid term elections
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> but I saw this meeting
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> and have blown an hour
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> admins have no right to dictate how a game is played
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> infra farms know the risk
[08/11 - 20:28] <{WoB}Chetter> if they get nailed by hoc or dest or alians from mars
[08/11 - 20:29] <{WoB}Chetter> aty least it was player based
[08/11 - 20:29] <{WoB}Chetter> and not admin based
[08/11 - 20:29] <{WoB}Chetter> rats were fine because they were mindless
[08/11 - 20:29] <Wayward_Son> Chetter that isnt going to work. i know you havent gotten a lot of sleep but i dont understand how you think that can continue. If someone doesn't have the time to keep up a massive empire with their RL schedule then they should downsize their empire. I'm all for making ways for people to 'improve' their empires withouth them getting bigger, in fact we are working on some right now.
[08/11 - 20:29] * item101uk (item101uk@ACD644E8.ipt.aol.com) has joined #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:29] <{WoB}Chetter> its none of your business how large empires are or if they cant defend themselves
[08/11 - 20:29] <{WoB}Chetter> let players decide that
[08/11 - 20:29] <Wayward_Son> However empires that grow indefinitely without someone putting energy into them most certainly IS my business. And how people play the game IS my right because we made it. I'm here asking for people to help us come up with a solution to a problem. Your solution is to ignore the problem. i don't see how that serves anyone
[08/11 - 20:30] <Wayward_Son> unlimited empire growth is horrible for the game
[08/11 - 20:30] <Wayward_Son> in every respect
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[08/11 - 20:30] <{WoB}Chetter> there is no unlimited growth unless your SoL
[08/11 - 20:30] <{WoB}Chetter> hehehehe
[08/11 - 20:30] <{WoB}Chetter> everyone fights
[08/11 - 20:30] <{WoB}Chetter> even beofre this threat of random fwar
[08/11 - 20:30] <{WoB}Chetter> I do have a solution
[08/11 - 20:30] <Wayward_Son> that isnt true Chet
[08/11 - 20:31] <{WoB}Chetter> drop the cost of dp mechs to a quarter there original price and make rebuilding and training take a quarter of the time and price
[08/11 - 20:31] <{WoB}Chetter> if you will force war at least people rebuid
[08/11 - 20:31] <Wayward_Son> ok
[08/11 - 20:31] <{WoB}Chetter> since your notion that war is the fastest way to rebuild is incoorect
[08/11 - 20:31] * John_Church is now known as Church_RAISES_HAND
[08/11 - 20:31] <{WoB}Chetter> 25% infra is easier to take then rebuilding 25% bv
[08/11 - 20:31] <Wayward_Son> it is the quickest way to economic recovery
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[08/11 - 20:31] <{WoB}Chetter> yes but econamy wont help me when im done with the lyrans
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> I need fast bv
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> which is impossible
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> even for a lvl 12
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> Im on record on how I feel
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> I wont take more time
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> thank you
[08/11 - 20:32] <Wayward_Son> so you support the FDOW restriction time after losing an FWAR
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> I will answer questions
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[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> of course
[08/11 - 20:32] <Wayward_Son> k
[08/11 - 20:32] <Wayward_Son> thanks
[08/11 - 20:32] <{WoB}Chetter> I was shocked to find there wasnt already
[08/11 - 20:32] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -v {WoB}Chetter
[08/11 - 20:33] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v Rianna_raised-hand
[08/11 - 20:33] * Rianna_raised-hand is now known as Rianna_Rose
[08/11 - 20:33] <Rianna_Rose> Hello, and thank you
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[08/11 - 20:34] <Rianna_Rose> First off... I like the Idea of FDOW restrictions afterwards and the Idea of restrictions on who you can DOW to those that are eligible for FDOW
[08/11 - 20:34] * Gogilitan is now known as Gog`raised-hand
[08/11 - 20:35] <Rianna_Rose> I would like to propose that this "forced warring" be limited to military based empires... I think it should be a disadvantage on their class ranks
[08/11 - 20:35] <Rianna_Rose> on the front page it says "Build your empire through near-limitless possibilities from military conquest to peaceful economic growth."
[08/11 - 20:35] <Rianna_Rose> I've played for 6 years doing that 'Peacful economic growth'
[08/11 - 20:35] <Rianna_Rose> and I am only a lvl 9..
[08/11 - 20:36] <Rianna_Rose> I've fought my fair shares of wars... and I am very active when it comes to arenas..
[08/11 - 20:37] <Rianna_Rose> I really liked the old bonuses for staying peaceful... it gave a reason to being diplomatic... now its just so I don't have to completely start over every 6 months
[08/11 - 20:37] * Terrettes_E (Prinz_Esca@AC947A3B.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
[08/11 - 20:37] <Rianna_Rose> that was removed along time ago though
[08/11 - 20:38] <Rianna_Rose> I think negative morale needs to be dealtwith beyond only warring..
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[08/11 - 20:38] <Rianna_Rose> I know this is a war game, but I've always liked it because its MORE than just a wargame... atleast it used to be
[08/11 - 20:39] <Rianna_Rose> and where are the new players going to be buying vehicles if they don't have old empires around that have researched them
[08/11 - 20:39] * ReLoad is now known as ReLoad_AFK_Work
[08/11 - 20:39] <Wayward_Son> Rianna_Rose 2 years ago there were a tiny fraction of the vehicle available now
[08/11 - 20:39] * Li_Ra is now known as Newspeaker
[08/11 - 20:39] <Rianna_Rose> yeah so I'm rambling a bit... sorry I'm on painkillers right now...
[08/11 - 20:39] * Newspeaker is now known as Li_Ra
[08/11 - 20:40] <Rianna_Rose> :) yes I know... I also had an issue on 'balance'
[08/11 - 20:40] <Rianna_Rose> IDF... alot of people hate them.. everyone knows they are essential right now though.
[08/11 - 20:41] <Wayward_Son> and everything was fine. The reason we focus on war so much is because there needs to be more of it. I would love more than anything to focus on the empire building aspects of the game, but currently the people at the top are great empire builders. we are seeking to change things so that the most successful empires/factions will be ones with successful warriors.
[08/11 - 20:41] <Wayward_Son> That doesn't mean that people who don't want to be offensive won't get ahead, it simply means that they won't as much
[08/11 - 20:41] <Wayward_Son> war is great for empire builders
[08/11 - 20:41] <Wayward_Son> war meanns more vehicle sales
[08/11 - 20:41] <Wayward_Son> it means more money changing hands
[08/11 - 20:41] <Wayward_Son> and it means a more dynamic game
[08/11 - 20:41] <Rianna_Rose> I really think we should try to implement the balltetech IDF artillery rules... regarding flight times, splash damage, and targeting a hex rather than a unit
[08/11 - 20:42] <Wayward_Son> if you truly do not want to fight you should make sure to surround yourself with player who know how to fight and are willing to defend you. All factions will need a good compliment of builders/warrriors
[08/11 - 20:42] <Wayward_Son> ok thanks Rianna_Rose
[08/11 - 20:42] <Wayward_Son> i gotta move along to next couple people quickly
[08/11 - 20:42] <Rianna_Rose> war may mean more vehicle sales... but not if the people building them have all their factories razed and no longer have the infrastructure to rebuild..
[08/11 - 20:43] <Rianna_Rose> I've had an empire decimated by war and haven't been able to recover for 2 years now...
[08/11 - 20:43] <Wayward_Son> if that extreme case is true then as Ive said maany times now well put more stuff in
[08/11 - 20:43] <Rianna_Rose> but alright... I'll shut up
[08/11 - 20:43] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -v Rianna_Rose
[08/11 - 20:44] * Wayward_Son sets mode: +v Gunner_Wavinghandswildly
[08/11 - 20:44] <Wayward_Son> go for it gunner
[08/11 - 20:44] <Gunner_Wavinghandswildly> wheee
[08/11 - 20:44] <Wayward_Son> i've only got 15 more minuutes
[08/11 - 20:44] * Gunner_Wavinghandswildly is now known as Gunner
[08/11 - 20:44] <Wayward_Son> and i thank everyone for coming in for this
[08/11 - 20:44] * PISSant is now known as HELLrazer-
[08/11 - 20:44] <Gunner> ok first off, Chet had a good point, reduce DP cost of mechs. no one wants to pay 40 DP for a mech to get killed by snipers before it even fires
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[08/11 - 20:45] * Terrettes_E is now known as killing-rats
[08/11 - 20:45] <Gunner> Secondly, people who like this game should support the game as a whole, not the changes they don't like, so quit voting for Nev on MPOGD, you don't like it, don't play
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[08/11 - 20:46] <Gunner> thirdly, way back in the day before IDF, I helped Helldoggs run a lvl 11 war against Vehnom
[08/11 - 20:46] <Gunner> There was no idf, there was constant fighting for 4 straight days
[08/11 - 20:46] <Gunner> This was fun, no chore, not tedious
[08/11 - 20:46] <Gunner> IDF slows things ridiculously
[08/11 - 20:46] <Gunner> Everyone has to use snipers cuz everyone else has em
[08/11 - 20:46] <Gunner> I do the same thing
[08/11 - 20:47] <Gunner> I hate IDF and I hate towersm but I have em cuz it's been made necessary by the other players
[08/11 - 20:47] <Wayward_Son> What about Will and others who use almost exculsively mechs?
[08/11 - 20:47] <Gunner> As far as rebuilding, if you need BV, get a bunch of cheap tanks and go train them, you will get plenty of gunners to use. A lvl 12 should be able to make hundreds of jeeps or whatever and train em
[08/11 - 20:48] <Gunner> Mechs don't have IDF, tanks will win if you have enough
[08/11 - 20:48] <Gunner> a tank isn't sposed to be the equal to a mech
[08/11 - 20:48] <Wayward_Son> no and the training stuff and skill reduction stuff that weve done should help ensure that
[08/11 - 20:48] <Wayward_Son> we will continue to mointor IDF
[08/11 - 20:48] <Gunner> yes
[08/11 - 20:49] <Gunner> but IDF is a huge part of why there is no war at high level
[08/11 - 20:49] <Wayward_Son> but I'm just not fully convinced that it is the answer. IDF was put in for a reason.
[08/11 - 20:49] <Gunner> Would you want to sit there for 2 weeks plinking away with snipers all day?
[08/11 - 20:49] <Wayward_Son> i think there are a lot of things we can do to speed up sensor zones
[08/11 - 20:49] <Wayward_Son> etc
[08/11 - 20:49] <Gunner> yes, cuz of towers
[08/11 - 20:49] <Gunner> which were put in cuz of uber mechs
[08/11 - 20:49] <Wayward_Son> and towers were there for a reason too :)
[08/11 - 20:49] <Wayward_Son> tey were put in for general defnse
[08/11 - 20:49] <Gunner> if you smooth terrain, tanks will work fine instead of towers
[08/11 - 20:50] <Wayward_Son> i think there needs to be some forest redutions
[08/11 - 20:50] <Gunner> Or how about making it so towers can only be built in certain size zones, like 640 and better, like Castle Brians. In BT, all castels and such had their weapons and parts scavenged.
[08/11 - 20:50] <Wayward_Son> but terrain isnt nearly as nasty as people gripe that it is
[08/11 - 20:50] <Gunner> it can be
[08/11 - 20:50] <Wayward_Son> of course
[08/11 - 20:50] <Wayward_Son> but they should be
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[08/11 - 20:50] <Wayward_Son> on occaision zones should be nasty
[08/11 - 20:50] <Gunner> certainly not every zone, but there are quite a few out there that suck
[08/11 - 20:50] <Wayward_Son> as there should be
[08/11 - 20:51] <Gunner> well it would speed things along
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> 50% of the zone sin the game are flat or almost flat
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[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> and terrain is a large part of what forces peopel to use skill
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> igf everything or most zones were flat and open
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> it would just bea long range shooting match
[08/11 - 20:51] <Gunner> Realism aside, we want faster war, not to sit here day and night for 2 weeks firing IDF
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> yes
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> so faster war
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> definitly on the agenda
[08/11 - 20:51] <Gunner> so better terrain
[08/11 - 20:51] <Gunner> no idf
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> problem is keeping it from going too fast
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> so people can defend
[08/11 - 20:51] <Gunner> make this a mech game again
[08/11 - 20:51] <Wayward_Son> always the problem
[08/11 - 20:51] * {WoB}Chetter is now known as Will2432424
[08/11 - 20:52] <Gunner> and get rid of OMT
[08/11 - 20:52] <Gunner> We should be allowed to have large armies in the era of Faction wars
[08/11 - 20:52] <Gunner> If your economy can support it with the new Maint changes, then let us have more tanks
[08/11 - 20:52] <Wayward_Son> im gonna need some convincing on that one
[08/11 - 20:52] <Wayward_Son> maybe a slight OMT reduction
[08/11 - 20:52] <Gunner> I run JGL on exempt
[08/11 - 20:52] <Wayward_Son> but OMT is still necesarry
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[08/11 - 20:52] <Wayward_Son> which is insanely expensive
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> You think I am gonna add tanks till I have negative income?
[08/11 - 20:53] <Wayward_Son> gunner do you have OMT?
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> you have forced people to bump maint up considerably
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> no
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> but I have 14 mil daily income
[08/11 - 20:53] <Wayward_Son> ive never seen a large empire with omt unless they just lost a TON of civpop
[08/11 - 20:53] * Elisa (nzn@82.140.149.101) Quit (Quit)
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> yes but I mean smaller empires
[08/11 - 20:53] <Wayward_Son> right
[08/11 - 20:53] <Wayward_Son> which have omt for a good reason
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> If they can support it, so be it
[08/11 - 20:53] <Wayward_Son> remember we had war levels before?
[08/11 - 20:53] <Wayward_Son> etc?
[08/11 - 20:53] <Gunner> ya they sucked
[08/11 - 20:54] <Gunner> silly idea
[08/11 - 20:54] <Wayward_Son> yeah
[08/11 - 20:54] * {TWI}Notorious is now known as ToyomaHad2milOMT
[08/11 - 20:54] <Wayward_Son> and so do level 4's with skill 0 T-bolts
[08/11 - 20:54] * Khan_Tenshi_Keller (xeniphia@71.9.152.189) Quit (Signed off)
[08/11 - 20:54] <Wayward_Son> that kill everyone
[08/11 - 20:54] * ToyomaHad2milOMT is now known as ToyomaisLvl11
[08/11 - 20:54] * Donovan (shadowmk2@shadowmk2.Users.AfterNET.Org) Quit (Signed off)
[08/11 - 20:54] <Gunner> well now we can hit that level 4s empty zone the tbolt is sitting in cheaply
[08/11 - 20:54] <Wayward_Son> ok I need to run but I hear your points.
[08/11 - 20:54] <Wayward_Son> we will keep talking about all this stuff
[08/11 - 20:54] <Gunner> thanks for listening
[08/11 - 20:54] <Wayward_Son> but i have to run right now
[08/11 - 20:54] * ToyomaisLvl11 is now known as {TWI}Notorious
[08/11 - 20:55] <Gunner> Stop voting for Nev on MPOGD you little bastards!
[08/11 - 20:55] * Gog`raised-hand is now known as Gog`Handwaving
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[08/11 - 20:55] * Gunner has the floor
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[08/11 - 20:55] * Gunner does the I can talk and you can't dance
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[08/11 - 20:56] <Wayward_Son> But I need people to focus on the proposed change. Faction surrender at 25% of total faction civpop/bv. All factions pay a small but increasing % of their income into their destabilization fund every nevday until the declare FWAR or are declared up. The winner of the FWAR wins that money.
[08/11 - 20:56] * MadT|afk (MadT@p54923B2E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has left #neveron_changes
[08/11 - 20:56] * Wayward_Son sets mode: -m
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gog`Handwaving> WW
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gog`Handwaving> before you go
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gog`Handwaving> I'd really like to see the way DP mechs are given changed. Currently, theyre free mechs on the market. This means empires of all levels can immediately raise an army of impossible proportions, if theyre willing to pay enough. My suggestion would be to make DP mechs cost a combination of DP/nevcash, giving cheaper mechs and an edge in war for people who donate, but not an instant army for free.
[08/11 - 20:56] <Wayward_Son> i gotta run i'm really sorry
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gunner> BLAH!
[08/11 - 20:56] <{TWI}Notorious> Plus FDOW Restrictions.
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gog`Handwaving> READ :O
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gog`Handwaving> last thing!
[08/11 - 20:56] <Wayward_Son> got ig gog thanks
[08/11 - 20:56] <Gog`Handwaving> ok ;)
[08/11 - 20:57] * Wayward_Son is now known as Wayward_AFK
[08/11 - 20:57] * Gog`Handwaving is now known as Gogilitan
[08/11 - 20:57] <Logres[AMI]Hand_Up> A brief period, perhaps 30 Nevdays, when a winning Faction cannot be FDoW'd, but individual empires can still be FDoW'd, so that transfers can be affected to help the recovering empires, if the winners are generous, (lol) -- and I second the thought that MOBILIZED troops should not have transport costs, it is redundant --one last point, Training personnel should be cheaper, in the real world we use blank ammo and laser eng
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Session Close: Tue Nov 08 20:57:59 2005

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