[22:15] <Randy> ok lets get this over with :)
[22:16] <After> yay
[22:16] <weird{G}> moderate or you'll get a migraine
[22:16] <Randy> for starters lets use fdow and fwar to talk about faction dows and faction wars
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[22:16] <Randy> no need weird{G}, i'm not saying too much here
[22:16] <After> huh?
[22:16] <weird{G}> kk
[22:16] <After> oh
[22:16] <Randy> just a real brief overview for folks
[22:16] <After> lol
[22:16] <Randy> then i'll try to dispel some of the inevitable irrational fears
[22:16] <Randy> then call it a night :)
[22:17] <Damz{IZW}> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[22:17] <Damz{IZW}> randy fixed that market thing :'(
[22:17] <Duckie|SOBER> de voice all pls
[22:17] <After> yea
[22:17] <Randy> fdow and fwars are basically going to be a new option for fighting a war
[22:17] <After> i dont want to hear myself
[22:17] <Damz{IZW}> i was building up a batt of strikers to sell to my smaller empire
[22:17] <Randy> the intention is to give the victim of a GB a shot at winning
[22:17] <Duckie|SOBER> Damz, quiet.
[22:17] <Damz{IZW}> :'(
[22:17] <Randy> although they can be used offensively too
[22:17] <Damz{IZW}> i thot ducks were nice animals
[22:18] * Randy sets mode: +m
[22:18] <Randy> ok i'll +m for a min here :)
[22:18] <Randy> only the FL can fdow
[22:18] * Looking`4`lvl6`war is now known as GB|OwnsXC
[22:18] <Randy> and only on factions fanked better than 10 lower than yourself
[22:18] <Randy> i.e. if your faction is 65
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[22:18] <Randy> you can fdow anyone rank 75 of better
[22:19] <Randy> now thats not entirely true
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[22:19] <Randy> since if someone is already in an fwar with your target, you have to count your COMBINED strenghts
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[22:19] <Randy> so if the bottom 50 guys all want to team up on TC-HoC .. they can
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[22:20] <Randy> but if all the HoC factions want to team up against R-1 or something ... won't happen
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[22:20] <Randy> when you fdow the FL pays a cost
[22:20] <Duckie|SOBER> how about abuse?
[22:20] <Randy> that is equal to the sum of twice the dow of all faction members
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[22:20] <Randy> for example, if FWLM-9 fdows, it will cost 1st Marik 19 million
[22:20] <Randy> if TC-HoC fdows (the most expensive i believe) it cost something like 21.5 billion
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[22:21] <Randy> once you fdow, all dows on your factions members (except from the fwar opponent(s)) are cancelled
[22:21] <Randy> likewise any dows your guys have on uninvolved factions cancel
[22:21] <Randy> there can be no new dows either in or out of your faction once you fdow, except by/against fwar opponents
[22:22] <Randy> when you have an fwar, all dows are $0 against your opponent faction(s)
[22:22] <Randy> now that doesn't mean the level 12 FL can dow the level 6s in the enemy faction
[22:22] <Randy> it means that if the DOW button is there, and you click it, it will cost $0
[22:23] <Randy> an fwar will last until one side wins
[22:23] <Randy> if 30 days (real days) pass without a winner it will be AUTOMATICALLY redeclared
[22:23] <Randy> that will cost a LOT
[22:23] <Randy> as in, MUCH MORE than the initial cost
[22:23] <Randy> up to 10x the sum of dows, depending on how much progress you've made
[22:23] <Randy> so as you can see, its not worth maintaining a state of friendly fwar to avoid being dow-able
[22:24] <Randy> tc-hoc for example would have to pay 100 billion a month for that "immunity"
[22:24] <Randy> basically, its unaffordable for anyone to abuse it like that
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[22:24] <Randy> an fwar ends when either (a) the enemy FL is surrendered or (b) half the total levels of the enemy faction are surrendered
[22:25] <Randy> the loser has to pay the same cost, twice the sum of dows, to the winner
[22:25] * Bartman-work is now known as Bartman
[22:25] <Randy> so since normally people will be roughly the same size, the loser pays the winners fdow cost
[22:25] <Randy> additionally, the losing faction members have a 10% chance per empire of being evicted from that faction
[22:25] <Randy> that includes the FL
[22:25] <Randy> thats the real impact of this system, as i'm sure some of you realize
[22:26] <Randy> its finally a way to really tear into some enemy factions and do real damage
[22:26] <Randy> especially those factions that are overfull and will not be able to easily replace members
[22:26] <Randy> the updates today to the faction list help idenfity such factions
[22:26] <Randy> also, btw, you can see that higher ranked factions get more bonus space
[22:26] <Randy> so there is a little incentive now to be bigger
[22:26] <Randy> other incentives will be coming as we add class levels
[22:27] <Randy> namely, bonus class levels for higher ranking factions
[22:27] <Randy> but thats a discussion for another day
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[22:27] <Randy> hm
[22:27] <Randy> well lets get on with it i guess
[22:27] * Randy sets mode: -m
[22:27] <Randy> concerns?
[22:27] <GB|OwnsXC> Question: Why is TC more expensive when it is not the highest rank factioned? that seems an imbalance in who is in your DoW rand and the cost
[22:27] * Randy sets mode: +m
[22:28] <Randy> ok two things
[22:28] <Randy> first that reminded me of something
[22:28] <Randy> the dow cost calculations are not affected by class levels
[22:28] <Randy> the fdow cost is based off NORMAL dow costs for each level
[22:28] <Randy> TC is the highest becuase of the concentration of high level empires
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[22:29] <Randy> a 13, 4 11s, and a 10 for example, plus a lot of others
[22:29] * Stcpt_Dawk_Hawkins is now known as SDH
[22:29] <Randy> the costs are higher for high level emps, and they have the most of them.
[22:29] * Randy sets mode: -m
[22:29] <Ravill> Question: is the 10% chance from being evicted from a faction reallly fair? i mean what if the person doesn't even want to go to war and can't find another faction in time and his emprie gets killed?
[22:29] <Duckie|SOBER> in your example, can a lvl 65 faction Dow on a lvl 64?
[22:29] <GB|OwnsXC> Duckie: lvl 65 can dow anyone from #1 to 75
[22:29] * Quack concurs with Ravill thats really not fair
[22:30] <Randy> ravill -- whether its fair or not, its a consequence of losing a faction war. if people want to kill you, and they win, yeah, you might get defactioned.
[22:30] <Quack> and then my empire gets eaten
[22:30] <Quack> and i quit the game
[22:30] <Quack> thanks randy
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[22:30] <Randy> lol
[22:30] <Randy> umm
[22:30] <Randy> ok :)
[22:30] <energydragon> :)
[22:30] <ArchAngel> big loss there
[22:30] <Erwin|afk_ponderinglife> He was kidding. I promise
[22:30] <After> anybody here care about quack?
[22:30] <Ravill> if my empires get eaten i jsut start over since i don't dp no loss
[22:30] <Ravill> but some people it would make them quit
[22:30] <After> yea
[22:30] <After> same here
[22:31] <Ravill> like quack :P
[22:31] <Erwin|afk_ponderinglife> I like quack
[22:31] <Erwin|afk_ponderinglife> he's just, tired.
[22:31] <After> i dont dp.. so it doesnt matter just time
[22:31] <Bartman> But is it fair the FL also having the possibility of being booted from the faction?
[22:31] <Ravill> i like him
[22:31] <Randy> it will make people choose factions a little more carefully, and choose who to admit more carefully as well
[22:31] <Rizwanul> we can do without more whiners
[22:31] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Randy, I had a question.
[22:31] <Randy> yes tenshi?
[22:31] <After> Q: how will this effect the climb of CFY to the top?
[22:31] <Dobie> what faction is Quack in? I want to hit it since he doesn't think they can win a faction war :P
[22:31] <ArchAngel> randy..would this change make wars a ton harder to fight and furthermore give DP'ers a giant advantage since their stuff doesnt cost nevcash and thus via donating they could fight longer
[22:31] <Bartman> After all, most FL's put A LOT of money into developing a faction
[22:31] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> If only the FL has to be surrendered to win the FWAR, then that is quite...difficult for FLs.
[22:31] <Randy> lol after
[22:31] <Ravill> what about faction leader is that fair then all the empires in that faction gets screwed
[22:31] <Duckie|SOBER> when will this system be in place?
[22:31] * Randy sets mode: +m
[22:32] <Randy> ok thats a lot of questions let me catch up before this degenerates
[22:32] <Randy> aa first
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[22:32] <Randy> i think this will makes wars a little more commonplace since it will really limit GB potential
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[22:32] <Randy> if you can fdow and know you're getting a 1 on 1 faction fight, its a lot more attractive
[22:32] <Randy> people with massive DP accounts will have an advantage, of course
[22:33] <Randy> they always will
[22:33] <Randy> i'm not sure that its any bigger or smaller than without fwar
[22:33] <Randy> it just means they can use less dp empires to attack you with
[22:33] <Randy> and you can use less dp empires to defend with
[22:33] <Randy> i don't see that being affected at all -- the dper will still generally have an edge, but no greater or less than before.
[22:34] <Randy> tenshi --- yes there is a LOT of pressure on FLs here
[22:34] <Randy> if an FL surrenders, the war is over
[22:34] <Randy> so people will probably fight hard to defend their FL
[22:34] <Randy> at lower levels it will lead to quick results i expect
[22:34] * Erwin|afk_ponderinglife is now known as ErwinNH
[22:34] <Randy> so lower level war will probably get a LOT more common
[22:34] <Randy> in fact maybe so much so that the game really changes a lot
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[22:35] <Randy> since it will be a great way for players to gain some cash
[22:35] <Randy> at higher levels, its hard to surrender a FL
[22:35] <Randy> and if high level factions use this system (its less lucrative for them unless they are REALLY going for it)
[22:35] <Randy> i expect the top-end wars will end with member surrenders, not the FL
[22:35] <Randy> (ever try surrendering a level 13??)
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[22:35] <Randy> Duckie|SOBER ... next week sometime.
[22:35] * Randy sets mode: -m
[22:35] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Randy, a follow-up to my question: Will there be abilities put in soon to reinforce and more easily defend a FL empire (such as class levels a few points higher)? Otherwise the tactics could degenerate into "GB a FL for a quick buck"
[22:36] <Duckie|SOBER> after winning a Fwar, do u get immunity at all or can u get FDoW again right away?
[22:36] <GB|OwnsXC> Q: what if one faction fdows multiple other factions, what happens then? are all of those factions locked in 3v1 with the single faction?
[22:36] <Ravill> you could put a limit on dp they can spend in war:like only on buying new mechs not repair and skilldowsn and stuff
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[22:36] <Duckie|SOBER> and when will it take affect?
[22:36] <ArchAngel> i pm'ed my followup
[22:36] <Randy> tenshi yes -- to a degree. this is actually a precursor to the next level of merc class, but i'm not going to get into details about that today.
[22:36] <Ravill> [22:31] <Ravill> what about faction leader is that fair then all the empires in that faction gets screwed if the faction leader gets kicked out of the faction?
[22:36] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Okay, ty Randy. That solves my concerns. Sounds like a lot of fun, too. :)
[22:37] <Randy> Duckie|SOBER you can go right into another fwar. if you LOSE one, there may be some kind of immunity, although i haven't fully decided that yet.
[22:37] <Randy> GB --- no. unlike normal dows, there are clearly 2 sides to an fdow
[22:37] <ArchAngel> <ArchAngel> what if your entire faction doesnt wanna fight
[22:37] <ArchAngel> <ArchAngel> what if you wanna fight as a individual in the faction
[22:37] <ArchAngel> <ArchAngel> will that option still exist
[22:37] <Randy> if someone fdows you, you're only affected when you win/lose
[22:37] <Randy> you can still fight other wars on the side
[22:37] <Randy> unless you turn around and fdow them back (if you're allowed to)
[22:38] <ArchAngel> are you going to set like faction classes
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[22:38] <ArchAngel> so you can make an agressive LW faction..as opposed to a uber-defender
[22:38] <Randy> ravill -- if FL gets booted from a faction, another emp in the faction assumes command
[22:38] <Randy> it does not disband the faction
[22:38] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> so if some faction DoWs you and they lose great, then their next faction in the alliance hits you, and then the next, and next. Meanwhile you can get no support from your alliance because you are stuck in all these 1 on 1s?
[22:38] <Ravill> oh ok
[22:38] <Ravill> then i LOVE the system so far
[22:38] <Ravill> wait
[22:38] <Ravill> what decides who the next fl will be?
[22:39] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Next largest emp, Ravill
[22:39] * Randy sets mode: +m
[22:39] <Randy> gunner no, let me explain
[22:39] <Randy> no, ok i misread that. you have it right.
[22:39] <Randy> as long as you keep winning
[22:40] <Randy> others can attack afterward
[22:40] <Randy> well, one at a time anyway :)
[22:40] <Randy> don't forget you get paid when you win
[22:40] <Randy> so its pretty lucrative if someone fdows you and then loses
[22:40] * Randy sets mode: -m
[22:40] <GB|OwnsXC> the obvious solution is to have your alliance mates fdow the other alliances
[22:40] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Randy, in response to Gunner's concern, would losses be counted for each FWAR? If not, then a quick next FWAR could surrender instantly almost.
[22:40] <Randy> thats an option gb, sure.
[22:40] <ArchAngel> randy how much will a Fdow cost for your average faction..and furthermore is the cost of wars still the same with fdow
[22:41] <ArchAngel> or does it drop as its fvf
[22:41] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> oh wow, so I make some nevcash and I have lost a ton of units and pilots. Now I get DoWed on again right away and don't have time to recover from the previous 4 factions that hit
[22:41] <Randy> no tenshi, surrender levels are not reset, but surrenders must be from after the fdow date
[22:41] <StCol_Alexi[Storm]> <GB|OwnsXC> the obvious solution is to have your alliance mates fdow the other alliances.....this puts smaller alliances at a distinct disadvantage.
[22:41] <ArchAngel> ie will you still get charged for attacks/moving etc even in a faction war or will that since your entire faction is supporting it be less expensive
[22:41] <Randy> so if some FL is surrendered, you can't fdow them and instantly win
[22:41] <Tywren> i have a question, if the FL looses will there be a moral loss to all members of the faction?
[22:41] <Kasim> I think they suffered enough
[22:42] <Scout_Noobs_Suck> personally I think you have lost your mind
[22:42] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Well, my concern is that if you are at say 49% losses and you win a FWAR. Another faction FDOW you and you lose 1%, surrendering.
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[22:42] <Kato> wow
[22:42] <Kato> this is nuts
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[22:42] <Randy> gunner thats exactly how it is now, yes, except that they would all hit AT THE SAME TIME currently and with fwar, they will have to hit ONE AT A TIME. clear improvement.
[22:42] <GB|OwnsXC> if they hit all at the same tiem now, we can counter with whatever we want
[22:42] <Randy> Tywren -- no, i decided losing a fwar will hurt your morale enough, without additional penalties.
[22:42] <GB|OwnsXC> instead of using beatup empires, use fresh ones
[22:43] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> GB, so FDOW Them first.
[22:43] <Randy> right
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[22:43] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Well, my concern is that if you are at say 49% losses and you win a FWAR. Another faction FDOW you and you lose 1%, surrendering.
[22:43] <Randy> if there is going to be a huge alliance war now, its going to be in several distinct chunks instead of successive MASSIVE gbs
[22:43] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> not really, because I can call down the wrath of HoC on their whole group now. Your new system means that if my faction doesnt have the proper levels to defend, All the smaller guys are gonna get pounded on. I as the lvl 12 FL can't hit the smaller enemy empires because you said you are leaving in the old DoW rules also
[22:44] <Randy> tenshi, thats a good concern you raise there. but think about it the other way too -- if levels were reset, you could lose 49% in a war and then another 50% without surrendering.
[22:44] <Randy> that would be much too devastating for almost any empire.
[22:44] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> That is true... I suppose it's just a risk to take then :)
[22:44] <Kasim> wow
[22:44] <GB|OwnsXC> when will this go in?
[22:44] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Gunner, if they're so small then why is it a problem to fight them off in a first place?
[22:45] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Eventually the lvl 9 and lower empires will lose a war of attrition, and I as the FL can't do diddly squat to help them fight because I can't cheaply hit the opposing LW empires
[22:45] <Randy> huge GBing alliances like HoC will definately be weakened by this gunner, its true
[22:45] <Randy> that should help the game immensely
[22:45] <Ravill> why don't you jsut take off surrender system much more satifying to kill a person WHOLE EMPIRE
[22:45] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Because Ravill, if he listend to that suggestion I would strangle you.
[22:45] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> :)
[22:45] <Randy> heh
[22:45] <Ravill> but it is more fun
[22:45] <Ravill> destroying a persons work on nev
[22:45] <Ravill> :(
[22:45] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Sure, unless you're the FL that is now a target.
[22:46] <Ravill> i am not a FL :P
[22:46] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy, you don't seem to understand: if a faction of lvl 7's fdows a group with a few 7s and a few 8's
[22:46] <Randy> gunner: if your members are being knicked to death by level 9s, fdow the enemy faction, kill the FL, and war over.
[22:46] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> no what will help the game immensely is finishing the current projects before you bring something else to halfway finish before moving on to your next great idea
[22:46] <GB|OwnsXC> those 7's will GB the less numerous 7's and 8
[22:46] <GB|OwnsXC> with no chance for retal
[22:46] <Randy> gunner this IS one of the unfinished projects that i'm finishing
[22:46] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Hmmm.
[22:46] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> well gee that would be great randy, but what if the opposing FL is lvl 11 and I can't hit without paying massive cash for his cities
[22:46] <Randy> GB there are ways around that which everyone is familiar with
[22:47] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Randy, to perhaps solve Gunner's concern, much like Surrender now, why not make a losing faction be unable to FDOW the faction they lost to for X time?
[22:47] <Randy> besides point to a faction of only level 7 LW empires
[22:47] <GB|OwnsXC> what is a lvl 6 going to do to a 7? bleed on it?
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[22:47] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> No it isnt because it isnt started. You dont have any of this implemented into the game, but you do have classes sitting unfinished
[22:47] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> No Tenshi that's not my concern
[22:47] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> It's the next faction in the alliance hitting the winning faction one on one
[22:47] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> and then the next after that
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[22:48] <FeaR> well they gotta be +10 or -10 fromt hem dotn they?
[22:48] <GB|OwnsXC> no
[22:48] <Randy> this is a precursor to class stuff. merc level 2 is the next class to work on, and this system had to be implemented first. you'll understand when you see it play out gunner. trust me on that.
[22:48] <FeaR> or was taht cahnged
[22:48] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> with no fear of reprisal because the faction that was winning is being beat down over time
[22:48] <GB|OwnsXC> it's from 10 below to #1
[22:48] <GB|OwnsXC> but I think randy just accomplished what no alliance has ever done
[22:48] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> so you're going to let people hire mercs to hit empires
[22:48] * Randy sets mode: +m
[22:48] <Randy> ok hang on a sec
[22:49] <Randy> i will address gunners concern again
[22:49] <Randy> he is saying that if there are, say, 5 factions that all want to kill your 1 faction, it can be trouble
[22:49] <Randy> becuase even if you beat the first 3 (making a lot of money btw) there will be 2 more lined up to take a crack at you
[22:49] <Randy> right now, if 5 factions want to kill you they can all attack at once
[22:49] <Randy> which means you have no chance at all
[22:49] <Randy> we see that all the time
[22:50] <Randy> in fact, hoc is not fully innocent of using multiple factions to attack a single target
[22:50] <Randy> all big alliances do that
[22:50] <Randy> with the fwar system
[22:50] <Duckie|SOBER> what if no one wins in 30 days.... and they go broke to the auto-FDoW?
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[22:50] <Randy> the 5 attacking factions will have to wait
[22:50] <Randy> and can only hit one at a time
[22:50] <Randy> this will actually give the defender a reasonable chance of surviving for a while
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[22:50] <Randy> even winning a few of the faction wars
[22:50] <Randy> if he can't find any allies to help him fight the attackers
[22:51] <Randy> its true that eventually 5 factions will probably, even 1 by 1, overpower him
[22:51] <Randy> but this fwar system will give him a MUCH better chance of fighting back rather than simply being overwhelmed in a single weekend of gangbanging
[22:51] * Randy sets mode: -m
[22:51] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy: high level factions can't fdow that low.. meaning a group of high level factions can be picked off one at a time by repeated fdows by smaller factions without the ability to have their allies preempt with their own fdow
[22:51] <Duckie|SOBER> what if no one wins in 30 days.... and they go broke after the auto-FDoW?
[22:51] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Gunner I think you're missing the point that if you (a member of a large alliance) get FDOWed by another faction, other HoC factions can hit other enemy factions. So you end up having a ton of 1vs1 Faction wars instead of 1vs5 or 1vs10 as it is now. If you had no allies whatsoever and pissed off a large alliance, then you are fubar just like you are now if, say, CBS pissed off HoC (to use an old example).
[22:51] <Ravill> gah
[22:51] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Yes you do because you have other factions backing you up. Let's look at KzK. They have no alliance. They are an independant faction. If all the CFC factions take a crack at them, they will eventually lose.
[22:51] <ThorazanMcKenna> what is to stop factions attacking in the current manner?
[22:52] * Randy sets mode: +m
[22:52] <Randy> gah is right ravill :)
[22:52] <Randy> let me catch up and read these
[22:52] <Randy> GB -- i don't really understand. if a group of low level factions are attacking a high level faction one by one i don't think they will ever win
[22:52] <Randy> whats a 100 rank faction going to do to a 50 rank.
[22:52] <Randy> i'll tell you
[22:52] <Randy> it'll lose :)
[22:53] <Randy> duckie --- if they go broke after 30 days then they'll lose pretty quickly!
[22:53] <Randy> thats incentive to end the war within 30 days, one way or another.
[22:53] <Randy> ok KzK is a great example against CFC
[22:53] <Randy> right now, if CFC wanted to kill them, they could
[22:53] <Randy> well
[22:54] <Randy> if they ever got their act together anyway
[22:54] <Randy> if they used all 12 factions or whatever to hit together
[22:54] <Randy> it would be over real quick
[22:54] <Randy> with the fwar system
[22:54] <Randy> a faction like kzk can actually stand alone without any allies
[22:54] <Randy> becuase their superior skill can easily defeat similar sized factions in one on one fights
[22:55] <Randy> adn the money from winning would certainly give them a big help in the next war
[22:55] <Randy> disclaimer: i'm not sure kzk actually has better skill than cfc
[22:55] <Randy> maybe they used to, but i assume cfc would walk over them these days
[22:55] <Randy> anyway.
[22:55] * Randy sets mode: -m
[22:55] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy: what is a rank 20 and then a 21 and then a 22 going to do to a rank 10 while ranks 2 and 7 can't do anything? They are going to overwhelm it.
[22:55] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Great, now let's look at an independant faction other then KzK, which doesnt have their skill. And money doesnt replace dead mechs fast enough.
[22:55] <Ravill> randy will there be a surrender button? and if so will you still have to pay the other factions FDOW cost?
[22:55] <weird{G}> what faction? AI cant beat anyone
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[22:55] <weird{G}> err sorry cheap shot at kzk
[22:56] <StCol_Alexi[Storm]> what would prevent serial FDOW against KzK by a singular alliance,
[22:56] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> nothing alexi
[22:56] * Randy sets mode: +m
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[22:56] <Randy> GB if you're implying that a 20, 21, and 22 can beat a 2, 7, and 10 ...
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[22:56] <Randy> i mean, i guess its possible
[22:56] <Randy> but if they do
[22:56] <Randy> they sure deserve every last dollar they won.
[22:56] * Randy sets mode: -mtn
[22:56] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy you obviously did not read what i said
[22:56] <Kasim> You said the bottom 50 factions could fdow TC for instance how does the math work there? As long as faction ranking adds up less the the one getting fdowed?
[22:57] <GB|OwnsXC> I suggest you read it again
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[22:57] <StCol_Alexi[Storm]> eventually atrittion would take a toll, and even the strongest would fall.
[22:57] <GB|OwnsXC> the 2 and 7 can't fdow the 21 or 22
[22:57] <Randy> ah i see
[22:57] <Randy> you're saying that a 10 could never defeat 20, 21, and 22 one at a time
[22:57] <Randy> who knows, maybe not
[22:57] <GB|OwnsXC> 10. 155 2 Draconis Elite Strike Team - No Mercy [DEST] -DEST- 5,709,674
[22:57] <Randy> lol
[22:57] <GB|OwnsXC> 20. 119 -100 Draconis Elite Strike Team - The Ruthless *DEST* 3,867,943
[22:57] <Randy> ok i take it back
[22:58] <GB|OwnsXC> 21. 163 -12 Dragion is a Big Fathead DBF 3,789,642
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[22:58] <GB|OwnsXC> double the firepower
[22:58] <Randy> dest NM can EASILY kill any 3 lesser factions :)
[22:58] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> A big empire will burn through a lot of units and pilots. They cant replace them fast enough, even with this cash they get for winning. Not to mention, with transfer limits as they are, the smaller empires can't get their share of those funds fast enough
[22:58] <Ravill> randy will there be a surrender button? and if so will you still have to pay the other factions FDOW cost?
[22:58] <ArchAngel> good question rav
[22:58] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> I agree that a surrender button is a good idea.
[22:58] <GB|OwnsXC> you add that up you get somewhere around 10M in pop w/ bv vs 5.5M
[22:58] <Randy> i'm not sure why we've degraded into a "but small guys can slowly one per month lose to a big guy and maybe some day they might actually win!" discussion
[22:59] <Kasim> Randy: You said the bottom 50 factions could fdow TC for instance how does the math work there? As long as faction ranking adds up less the the one getting fdowed?
[22:59] <ThorazanMcKenna> again, what , if anything, is to stop factions attacking in the current manner?
[22:59] <ArchAngel> cause certain people dont like changes that make things fair randy
[22:59] <GB|OwnsXC> randy rank 20 is NOT small
[22:59] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> And what happens when it's not DEST. You seem to be placing a lot of faith in everyone's miraculous ability to defend against a constant barrage of faction wars.
[22:59] <Randy> rav --- i was thinking about that more today, and decided not to put in such a button. if you want to surrender intentionally, you'll have to turn over 10% (or whatever level) of your infra in the FL to surrender and end it.
[23:00] <Ravill> ok
[23:00] <ArchAngel> but randy that implies a good faith agreement
[23:00] <GB|OwnsXC> well HoC can make a lot of rank 30 factions
[23:00] <Ravill> could you surrdner yourself with a raider empire?
[23:00] <Randy> kasim: its done by civpop like other rankings. add up the bottom 50 factions civpop in this example, and if that is less than the faction ranked 10 above the target, all 50 could attack it
[23:00] <ArchAngel> what about a button that automatically hands over xinfra
[23:00] <ArchAngel> and immediately surrenders your faction
[23:00] <GB|OwnsXC> and kill everything above us because their allies can't do a thing
[23:00] <ArchAngel> (abuse of which will result in uber-big fine
[23:00] <GB|OwnsXC> because they can't fdow down
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[23:00] <Randy> then go for it GB. I HIGHLY doubt it will be as easy as you think :)
[23:01] <Randy> but i would LOVE to see you try
[23:01] <GB|OwnsXC> it will be except you killled hoc
[23:01] <GB|OwnsXC> GJ though
[23:01] <Randy> ok hang on
[23:01] <Randy> how did I kill hoc?
[23:01] <GB|OwnsXC> well when all the fls sell
[23:01] <GB|OwnsXC> kinda hard to have an alliance
[23:01] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> your stupid ass fine for losing a duel causing many people to leave.
[23:01] <Randy> trust me i did NOT tell anyone they had to sell their empires GB
[23:01] <GB|OwnsXC> ycongrats on doing what no one has ever done
[23:01] <Ravill> GB that is their decsion to sell
[23:01] <Randy> 5 billion is inconsequential for a level ll
[23:01] <FeaR> yea thye sell on their own accord
[23:01] <Duckie|SOBER> can FL get additional bonus for taking all the risk?
[23:01] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> GB, Randy never forced HoC's leaders to sell. They sell because they dislike his decision.
[23:02] <ArchAngel> agree with randy
[23:02] <Randy> if people want to use that as an excuse to quit, that is NOT my problem.
[23:02] <Rizwanul> god, dont act stupid
[23:02] <Rizwanul> EVERYTHING isn't randy's fault
[23:02] <Dobie> 5 billion for unproven or unexplained cheating is excessive
[23:02] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> No, they sell because they were called cheaters with no proof, and no rules broken, and Randy refuses to even discuss it
[23:02] <xcoyote`> I heard half the reason they are selling is because of this change here... It will destroy LW as it is.
[23:02] <xcoyote`> Make it restrictive, and take away the freedom that this game posses.
[23:02] <Dobie> people used arenas to get pilots out of mechs all the time, they all shoudl be fined as well
[23:02] <Randy> duckie: absolutely. all the money paid by the losing faction members goes to the winning FL
[23:02] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> xc, no one is forcing you to use FDOW :P
[23:03] <ArchAngel> thus the question way at beginning
[23:03] <ArchAngel> will you still be able to normal LW
[23:03] <Khan_Michael_Klien> yes
[23:03] <GB|OwnsXC> until someone else fdows you
[23:03] <ArchAngel> yes but they can Fdow back
[23:03] <xcoyote`> But you can FDOW me, right?
[23:03] <Randy> xcoyote` please don't make uninformed statements like that. please get someone to send you the earlier discussion so you can see the truth about fwar and fdow
[23:03] <ArchAngel> which will cause you to be veeerry careful about your targets wont it
[23:03] <ArchAngel> unless you wanna take on the faction
[23:04] <ArchAngel> basically removing that whole "we will defend our members" in faction desc
[23:04] <ArchAngel> cause guess what..now you can..without the guy running to self surrender
[23:04] <ThorazanMcKenna> wouldn't it be fairer to the entire faction to give say 50% to the FL and 50% divided among the faction members in order to avoid transfer bottlenecks Randy?
[23:04] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> but according to randy, that's ok to self surrender, because then the initial attacker gets paid surrender cash
[23:05] <Randy> ThorazanMcKenna the FL pays for the fdow, so its fair that he gets the money at the end if he wins. if he wants to distribute it he can do it after.
[23:05] <Spyder_SemiAFK> will transfer limits be raised?
[23:05] <StCol_Wolverine_Davis> Then we need higher transfer limits
[23:05] <ArchAngel> eh wolvie didnt see you there
[23:05] <ArchAngel> lol
[23:05] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> and then the smaller empires that burned through tons of cash can't receive it fast enough and run out of money
[23:05] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> then they die
[23:05] <Randy> no -- guys the FL pays the fdow and the FL gets the money at the end to cover that
[23:06] <Randy> no need to transfer it
[23:06] <LtCol_Isotope{FWLM}-LW> how will empire classes impact this?
[23:06] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> and the smaller empires still have to pay attack costs
[23:06] <Randy> the members benefit from all the free dows, and from the limited scope of the war
[23:06] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Randy: Will there be discounts for transit costs as well using the FWAR system?
[23:06] <Ravill> yea randy but what if a another faction FDOWs right after ytou win lower levels will run out of moeny and not be able to get it fast enough
[23:06] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> The smaller empires will save 50 mil or so on DoW costs. big deal
[23:06] <ArchAngel> Randy..If im in a war..and i manage to trap someones units can they run and self surrender to protect said units
[23:06] <ArchAngel> or would that be alot harder to do in a fdow
[23:06] <ArchAngel> cause it would surrender a member
[23:06] <Randy> tenshi: not above and beyond the current discounts for warrior class.
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[23:07] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> K
[23:07] <ArchAngel> thus putting the attacker who trapped faction in advantage ?
[23:07] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Keep in mind, guys, that you can fight effectively on the defensive.
[23:07] <Randy> gunner this is ridiculous. why are you being so confrontational. YES! the members save money! why are you trying to put a negative spin on that?
[23:07] <xcoyote`> Can someone send me logs?
[23:07] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy
[23:07] <GB|OwnsXC> they save 50M
[23:07] <Spyder_SemiAFK> I also think the 10% to kick is incredibly high given the costs. 1-2% is enough a risk - look at mine expiration
[23:07] <Spyder_SemiAFK> xcoyote I can
[23:07] <Duckie|SOBER> I'll post a log later
[23:07] <Randy> you'd rather they save nothing gb?
[23:07] <GB|OwnsXC> and lose 100's in untis and expenses
[23:07] <Spyder_SemiAFK> I have from beginning
[23:07] <Duckie|SOBER> as I
[23:07] <GB|OwnsXC> well if you're having the FL hoard billions
[23:08] <GB|OwnsXC> the means they don't get their tfers all the time
[23:08] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> NO! They don't save money. They save 50 mil or so for a DoW. THAT'S IT! They still have to pay DZ costs, transit costs, attack costs, and replacement unit costs. And they can't receive money fast enough to do all that
[23:08] <GB|OwnsXC> so they lose more than 50M in tfers
[23:08] <Ravill> what if you win a FDOW and then another faction FDOW's you the lower levels will not be able to get moeny to atttack or defend themselves in time?
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[23:08] * Randy sets mode: +m
[23:08] <Randy> ok this is getting out of hand
[23:08] <Randy> you're saying that people save money but still have to pay for the war costs
[23:08] <Randy> and you're saying that thats somehow worse than the current system
[23:09] <Randy> where they DONT save any money but still have to pay for the war costs
[23:09] <Randy> GB you're saying that the FL has to save billions for a fdow
[23:09] <Randy> you do NOT have to use fdow
[23:09] <Randy> its an option avaiable
[23:09] <Randy> but you can still fight normal, small wars here and there without it
[23:10] <Randy> if you don't want to fdow, don't do it
[23:10] <Randy> you can still transfer your members money
[23:10] <Randy> and let them pay all the costs
[23:10] <Randy> and at the end of the day
[23:10] <Randy> not get anything back
[23:10] <Randy> unlike fwar
[23:10] * xcoyote` is now known as what_if_they_fdow_u
[23:10] * what_if_they_fdow_u is now known as xcoyote`
[23:10] <Randy> where at the end of the day, the winner gets the money back
[23:11] <Randy> if they fdow you xcoyote then you're not affected in any way shape or form until you win or lose, at which point you either pay or receive money.
[23:11] * Randy sets mode: -m
[23:11] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> It's not getting out of hand. I am pointing out exploits and holes in your idea. Saving 50 friggin million dollars from a DoW is not going to keep an empire alive when they are spending hundreds of millions during the war. And no, the winner doesnt get the money back, just the FL who can't pass it down to his members to stay alive fast enough. Your idea has holes
[23:11] <ThorazanMcKenna> then what is to stop factions from continuing to GB as they currently do?
[23:11] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Randy: FWAR looks like a good plan, and I think it will work and I think people will eventually like it more. Maybe not the huge GB factions, but I think that most people will benefit from it.
[23:11] <LtCol_Mirror|rorriM-C> Randy, this sounds like a hilarious idea
[23:11] <Randy> thanks tenshi, i agree
[23:11] <LtCol_Mirror|rorriM-C> go for it
[23:11] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Thor, FDOW the enemy.
[23:11] <Randy> the gb alliances won't like it
[23:11] <Randy> but it will clearly benefit everyone else
[23:11] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Oh, Randy, Thor made me think of something...
[23:11] <Ravill> what if you win a FDOW and then another faction FDOW's you the lower levels will not be able to get moeny to atttack or defend themselves in time?
[23:12] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> If a faction attacks you, regardless of size, you should be able to FDOW like you currently can with DOW.
[23:12] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Ravill, that is the same way it is now. You just manage to save them money with the new system.
[23:12] <Randy> ravill if people continue to attack at every opportunity and you have no one to help you out, you will surely lose eventually. just like now, only it will take longer if you're using fdows becuase the number of attackers will be limited at any given time.
[23:12] <ArchAngel> Randy..question..(the previous one) If there is a FDOW and im hitting someone..and trap their mechs..will they be able to self surrender..and if they self surrender does that hurt their faction as 1 member will be surrendered very quickly
[23:13] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy: will pirates still attack factions in fwar?
[23:13] <Randy> AA ... it will help you if they self surrender only in the respect that it will count toward the "half total levels surrendered" that ends the war.
[23:13] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> YOU DONT SAVE ANY MONEY EXCEPT YOUR INITIAL DOW COSTS. What part of that don't you get? How many times must it be said? Your members save a small fraction of war costs. Then they spend all their money and die
[23:14] <GB|OwnsXC> also, can CFY fdow TC-HoC?
[23:14] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Gunner, how is that different from right now?
[23:14] <Spyder_SemiAFK> sorry but this is a big point on loosing side as all will loose eventually - the 10% to kick is incredibly high given the costs. 1-2% is enough a risk - look at mine expiration
[23:14] <Randy> gunner -- i'm asking why saving initial dow costs is worse than not saving them?
[23:14] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> because no one can help you with this new system Tenshi
[23:14] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Why not?
[23:14] <Randy> what 10% are you talking about spyder?
[23:15] <ArchAngel> k so if a empire self surrenders...they acutally hurt their faction
[23:15] <ArchAngel> correct
[23:15] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Because you get locked into a series of 1 on 1s and you get no support from anywhere
[23:15] <xcoyote`> Randy, I'm just concerned that if a Faction DoW's you, it takes away everyone's freedom to DoW outside of a FWar target? (correct me if I'm wrong) how can you not see that as a bad thing.
[23:15] <ThorazanMcKenna> will surrender income for individual empires surrendering to others within a Fwar still give normal surrender income?
[23:15] <Randy> right AA
[23:15] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> And you can't FDOW the enemy.
[23:15] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Because the enemy is smaller than you.
[23:15] <ArchAngel> k COOL
[23:15] <Spyder_SemiAFK> self surrender or lose war - 10% chance of emp kicked from faction
[23:15] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Because all the other empires in your faction that can help you, they don't have any cash either
[23:15] <Randy> no xcoyote` ---- if someone fdows you, it limits THEM not YOU. you can still dow anyone else you want
[23:15] <xcoyote`> Aaah.
[23:15] <xcoyote`> ok.
[23:15] <Randy> ThorazanMcKenna --- yes it will.
[23:15] <GB|OwnsXC> well you should have said that
[23:16] <xcoyote`> That's sounding better now.
[23:16] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Except you said earlier that if you do that you lose the first war didnt you
[23:16] <ThorazanMcKenna> there, better now gunner? :)
[23:17] <Spyder_SemiAFK> self surrender or lose - 10% per emp of kick from faction is too high - almost ridiculous. look at 1-2% on mine expiration. the percentage needs to be less
[23:17] <Randy> spyder yes, you're picking up on by FAR the most important and impactful part of this whole system -- the 10% defactioning percentage. That will definately have big effects on the game and make sure that factions don't stay overfull for too long (unless they ALWAYS win)
[23:17] <Randy> thats clearly the MAJOR effect in this whole process and its intentional that its so impactful
[23:17] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Would it be possible to lower that to like 5% maybe?
[23:17] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> 10%...
[23:17] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Knowing the RNG we would lose half a faction if we lost ;)
[23:18] <Rizwanul> or atleast lower it for the FL
[23:18] <Randy> it will actually lead to allowing for multi-faction alliances and higher faction size limits eventually :)
[23:18] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Yes, let's make it so that if a faction goes over it's number of levels and loses a war, they can't reform
[23:18] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy: say my lvl 7 in TC-HoC is attacking someone in faction #13, and CFY fdows faction #13 for.... pocket change I ose my DoW?
[23:18] <GB|OwnsXC> and can no longer attack?
[23:18] <Randy> no, the 10% is here to stay, but it will allow for, as i said, bigger factions and multi-faction alliance rule changes in the future if factions indeed become more dynamic. That, of course, is assuming war becomes a lot more frequent. We shall see.
[23:19] <xcoyote`> No, I think they would Lose their DoW on you though
[23:19] <xcoyote`> If they had one.
[23:19] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> That's a good question GB, because then you could abuse it by paying off a smaller faction to FDOW a larger one.
[23:19] <GB|OwnsXC> ^
[23:19] <Spyder_SemiAFK> do I am hitting an emp and some faction dow that same emps faction. that faction now has to deal with me and a faction war?
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[23:19] <Randy> no GB not at all. CFY would lose any dows not on faction 13, and you would lose any dows on CFY (if any) ... NOT the other way around.
[23:19] <Ravill> Randy what about a faction that is below your FDOW randge limits if they FDOW you can you FDOW them back?
[23:20] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> That's not what GB asked randy
[23:20] <Randy> ravill --- good question. I hadn't considered that but yet, that should be allowed.
[23:20] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> He didnt have a DoW on CFY
[23:20] <Rizwanul> 1 FDOW works both ways right?
[23:20] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> He had it on #13, which CFY just FDOWed
[23:20] <Ravill> ok
[23:20] <Randy> i know gunner, thats why i answered with "no not at all" and then explained exactly who would lose dows. note that his dow on the 13 would NOT be included in that list.
[23:20] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> so GB loses his 1 on 1 DoW
[23:20] <GB|OwnsXC> ok randy
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[23:21] <GB|OwnsXC> so you can fdow AND normally hit a faction
[23:21] <GB|OwnsXC> at the same time
[23:21] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> "note that his dow on the 13 would NOT be included in that list."
[23:21] <GB|OwnsXC> so I get TC-HoC to singly DoW on #13
[23:21] <GB|OwnsXC> then get cfy to fdow #13
[23:21] <GB|OwnsXC> or some lower ranked hoc faction
[23:21] <Randy> if A is fighting B, and C fdows on B .......... A's dows on B are NOT canceled!
[23:22] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> And B's DoWs on A?
[23:22] <Randy> not canceled
[23:22] <GB|OwnsXC> so now that faction is fighting TC-HoC and some second faction that fdow'd
[23:22] <Spyder_SemiAFK> so you can still gb then
[23:22] <xcoyote`> If my faction is in a FWAR, and someone hits my outside of the FWAR Targets, I can't DoW them?
[23:22] <Randy> the only things canceled are dows on C by anyone other than B ... and dows by C on anyone other than BV
[23:22] <xcoyote`> And my faction is the one that FDOW'd
[23:22] <Randy> the only things canceled are dows on C by anyone other than B ... and dows by C on anyone other than B
[23:22] <Ravill> you cna still gangbang but it is just reduced
[23:22] <GB|OwnsXC> hardly
[23:22] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> then what's the point of this system. We can just do individual DoWs before we do a FDOW
[23:23] <GB|OwnsXC> and lock them down
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[23:23] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Cost you a mint to do it that way though.
[23:23] <GB|OwnsXC> no
[23:23] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> no it wont
[23:23] <Randy> becuase when someone is getting GBd they can fdow, and suddenly there is no more GB. THAT is the main point.
[23:23] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> because when the faction wins, they get their FDOW costs back
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[23:23] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> I'm confused Randy.
[23:23] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> You just said it didn't cancel individual DoWs.
[23:23] <ArchAngel> randy they can only Fdow if they have the cash tho
[23:23] * Randy sets mode: +m
[23:23] <Randy> ok
[23:23] <Randy> lets have a real example here
[23:24] <Randy> i'll try to be comprehensive
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[23:24] <Randy> lets say that tc-hoc is fighting a dozen little wars against empires in a dozen factions
[23:24] <Randy> then big bad SFC comes along and throws down 18 billion for a fdow against tc-hoc!
[23:24] <Randy> what is cancelled?
[23:25] <Randy> well, the little dow that glibberland had against some kzk is cancelled...
[23:25] <Randy> the dow by some noob raider against Sandol is cancelled
[23:25] <Randy> but no dows of tc-hoc are cancelled .. no dows against tc-hoc are cancelled ...
[23:25] <Randy> the fdow is protecting the faction the issues it, NOT the target.
[23:26] * Randy sets mode: -m
[23:26] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Hmm...if a faction is in a normal war, and losing, would they be able to FDOW to get out of it, assuming they had the money?
[23:26] <GB|OwnsXC> yes
[23:26] <xcoyote`> Randy, if my faction is in an FWAR it started, and someone outside of the two factions fighting hits say my empire, can I DOW Them to kill them off?
[23:26] <Tywren> os if you want the same protection they have can you Fdow them back?
[23:26] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> 50 HoC empires DoW CIH. Then TC{HOC} FDOWs it. Now CIH is locked into a faction war with TC, and 50 individual empire DoWs. CIH faction loses, TC gets their money back, 50 HoC empires have shiny new infra.
[23:26] <Dobie> so if TC-HoC fdows back then its DoWs for and against it are cancelled Correct?
[23:27] <Randy> to a degree yes tenshi, absolutely. they give up on their option of recapturing losses (since dows will cancel) but they can certainly start a massive war to end a limited one. absolutely.
[23:27] <fjcardoso{FWLM-C}LW> So if some empires from faction A are attacked by other empires of faction B, faction A can FDOW faction C and it will terminate DOWs from faction B on faction A?
[23:27] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> lol, good point.
[23:28] <Randy> gunner if CIH thought they could handle all the attackers without bothering to fdow on one of their factions, yeah, they can get GBd just like now. no problem.
[23:28] <Ravill> Randy could you put in a time peroid for winners of a FDOW and losers to recover from the war?
[23:28] <Rizwanul> durr..when CIH dows back, old dows are cancled
[23:28] <Randy> of course as Rizwanul just said, CIH can fdow back cancelling all the other dows
[23:28] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy: can you fdow anyone who has fdow'd you?
[23:29] <Randy> GB ravill suggested that earlier and i'll have to think about it. i'm actually tempted to say no, and if someone less than 10 levels smaller fdows you you have to handle it "tradionally" but if i can't think of any way of abusing it i'll certainly consider adding a counter-fdow option
[23:29] <xcoyote`> Randy, if my faction is in an FWAR it started, and someone outside of the two factions fighting hits say my empire, can I DOW Them to kill them off?
[23:29] <GB|OwnsXC> Example 2: 50 HoC empires DoW CIH, then DBF (rank 20) fdows the faction
[23:30] <GB|OwnsXC> What can CIH do to get out?
[23:30] <Randy> xcoyote` in that example if someone attacks your empire while you have fdowd someone, they are doing so without a dow!
[23:30] <Randy> in that case you have, as always, 3 days to attack whatever zone they took at with-dow prices even without having one
[23:30] <Randy> but no, you could NOT get a dow on them
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[23:30] <Ravill> Randy could there be a time peroid for winners and losers of a FDOW to recover before anyone else can DOW them OR FDOW them
[23:30] <xcoyote`> ok.
[23:31] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> I agree with Ravill that there should be some "recover" time.
[23:31] <xcoyote`> Cuz it would be expensive but possible for someone to spend say, 3bil and take a city without DoW
[23:31] <Spyder_SemiAFK> it would be worth it to surrender FL
[23:31] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Would it?
[23:31] <Spyder_SemiAFK> with the chance of killing entire faction
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[23:31] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> They spend 3bil, probably the cost of a FDOW.
[23:31] <Randy> fdow-immunity for losers is probably a good idea. for winners, i'm not so sure. but ravil/tenshi i'll think about that, it seems like a good idea at first glance certainly.
[23:31] <Spyder_SemiAFK> 10% again
[23:31] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> TY Randy, your attention to it is appreciated :)
[23:32] <Ravill> of course losers would have a longer peorid then the winners
[23:32] <GB|OwnsXC> randy can you respond to my example 2?
[23:32] <Randy> spyder -- remember just because the FL is booted doesn't disband the faction. another empire could/would assume command.
[23:32] <Randy> tenshi -- you're very welcome :)
[23:32] <Spyder_SemiAFK> but FL could not come back
[23:32] <Spyder_SemiAFK> only remake would let him come back
[23:32] <Randy> gb in example 2 you're talking about DBF fdowing CIH right?
[23:33] <GB|OwnsXC> after 50 HoC empires DoW CIH
[23:33] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> and then not only does the losing FL empire have to pay a nevcash penalty to the winner, now he has to potentially pay billions to reform his faction
[23:34] <Randy> spyder if he was still equal or higher level than the new FL you're right, he's not getting back in without remaking it. again, as you are recognizing (and everyone else seems not to care too much about) this is THE major change of all this, it makes factions MUCH less permanent and is a very substantial change to the game.
[23:34] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> why the hell would you come up with an asinine idea like booting empires out of a faction? If you wanted that, you could have let Will keep his units with the link for leaving a faction in his names
[23:34] <Ravill> Randy about my susggestion earlier about recover time just adding that the loser should have a longer recover time and so should anyone who got his by the !0% chance of being booted out of the faction from anyone hitting them?
[23:34] <Randy> it'll make for a more dynamic game gunner.
[23:34] * Randy sets mode: +m
[23:34] * Wraith_afk is now known as Wraith[KH]
[23:34] <Randy> ok let me read and reply to GBs other example here without getting distracted
[23:35] <Randy> if 50 hoc empires dow CIH
[23:35] <Randy> and then DBF fdows CIH
[23:35] <Randy> then its exactly identical to the current system, as far as CIH is concerned
[23:35] <Randy> they're looking at a 70 empire or so gangbang
[23:35] <Randy> but with one important difference
[23:36] <Randy> if they surrender the DBF FL they get a big payoff, and DBF suffers
[23:36] <Randy> and if the CIH FL surrenders (or half the faction of course) they have to pay a lot of money and THEY suffer
[23:36] <Randy> now,
[23:36] <Randy> if CIH chooses to
[23:36] <Randy> it might want to FDOW someone itself
[23:36] <Randy> most likely, of course, one of the HOC factions in this case
[23:37] <Randy> that will INSTANTLY cancel any dows that are not from said HOC faction or DBF (who already had a fdow)
[23:37] <Randy> that will really limit the scope of the war
[23:37] <Randy> and give them the opportunity to fight two attacking factions instead of half a dozen
[23:37] <Randy> so generlly speaking, they would be pretty smart to do that, rather than suffer an even larger GB
[23:38] <Randy> additionally, they could, if they beat one or both enemys in their fdows, collect a nice payoff.
[23:38] * Randy sets mode: -m
[23:38] <ArchAngel> so what your saying is..if someone tries to Gangbang you..you can turn around and wack their allies to prevent/punish them for it and they just wasted the cost of 50 DoW's right..aslong as they can surrender both FL's
[23:38] <GB|OwnsXC> what if none of the empires are in fdowable factions?
[23:38] <ArchAngel> good question
[23:38] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Hmm... I'm beginning to agree that a counter-FDOW would be a good idea for instances such as that.
[23:38] <xcoyote`> I strongly disagree with the kicking of the empires from the faction, that's just total bs. It's hard enough getting factions just the way you wnt them, then you have to restructure cause esay your FL got kicked?!?
[23:38] <juggleboy> if they lose in thise case does the 10% apply twice (2fdows)
[23:38] <xcoyote`> That creates Floating Factions, not proper long term homes.
[23:39] <ArchAngel> however alliance itself will still be longterm
[23:39] <ArchAngel> allowing for future development of Alliances with multiple factions in them
[23:39] <xcoyote`> But where does the say lvl 11 FL production empire go, after it's kicked?
[23:39] <ArchAngel> the factions change the alliance dont right
[23:39] <Randy> GB in that case they're pretty much left with the current system, unless they want to fdow a top 10 faction to get out of it (which is dumb). basically what they shoudl do there is focus all efforts on surrendering the DBF FL to get the 15 billion purse and continue to defend the GB just as they would under the current system.
[23:39] <xcoyote`> If it's not in a faction, how can it be in an alliance?
[23:39] <ArchAngel> Randy
[23:39] <Spyder_SemiAFK> I actually like this idea on the whole but the kicking is way too much for me - I really do not like this.
[23:39] <ArchAngel> what if you go right for the FL without a FDOW
[23:40] <ArchAngel> knock it down till its about to surrender
[23:40] <ArchAngel> then fdow
[23:40] <ArchAngel> and surrender it
[23:40] <Spyder_SemiAFK> that is my concern
[23:40] <Wraith[KH]> so when an empire that doesn't want to be a FL is now forced into it, just disband the faction and watch members get wasted while unfactioned, as the FL doesn't have the money after losing fwar to reform the faction?
[23:40] <fjcardoso{FWLM-C}LW> I dont like kicking too
[23:40] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> I agree that 10% is a bit much...
[23:40] <After> Comment: I'd rather see the merc class be devloped more BEFORE this faction dow is completed
[23:40] <After> such as defense contracts
[23:40] <ArchAngel> i agree on that Tenshi
[23:40] <ArchAngel> 10% is a wee bit high
[23:40] <ArchAngel> maybe a floating figure based on how fast you lose or some such
[23:40] <GB|OwnsXC> ok when does this go in so I can disband kizo before I quit?
[23:40] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> wee bit...It shouldnt be at all
[23:41] <Randy> Spyder_SemiAFK --- it makes the consequences of major wars (fwars) a lot more severe. thats understood and intentional. remember fdows at the high level will be very very rare because of the costs involved, but once in a while a big faction will lose members it will not easily be able to replace.
[23:41] <Spyder_SemiAFK> just means small alliance will have to team up fast
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[23:42] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> I think the biggest problem may be losing the FL of an alliance, because the next largest empire may be level 2 or something in a smaller faction.
[23:42] <Dogmatic> Looks like it's designed to take out the largest empires in the game
[23:42] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> That would basically kill the faction.
[23:42] <Randy> what it means, really, is that if you're fearful of losing an fwar you should always keep your faction around its 0 size, and not overfulll
[23:42] <jim_afk> rule changes to diadvantage established empires
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[23:42] <jim_afk> you have a history of doing this randy
[23:42] <weird{G}> anyone know how to deal with Ghost jobs in an empire?
[23:42] <Spyder_SemiAFK> but you are asking peeps to not grow
[23:42] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> ask in #neveron weird
[23:42] <xcoyote`> I still find it distrurbing that my lvl 11 production empire can find itself on it's own if a faction war looses.
[23:43] <Randy> sypder not entirely --- just to keep a bit balanced. remember as you grow, you get more room for your faction
[23:43] <Wraith[KH]> agreed xcoyote`
[23:43] <Spyder_SemiAFK> most players at least at the beginning dream of a level 11
[23:43] <Spyder_SemiAFK> what you are saying is no
[23:43] <Randy> and if fwars DO become common you can be sure i'll be increasing the ranking bonus for faction sizing.
[23:43] <Spyder_SemiAFK> do not grow
[23:43] <Spyder_SemiAFK> or leave if you reach a certain level
[23:44] <Randy> what faction is yours spyder?
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[23:44] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> well XC, when your lvl 11 gets booted out, and you had to pay the surrender costs, and you have no faction that can take you in, and no money to make your own new faction, you can be gangbanged by tons of empires with no chance to FDOW anyone and stop it
[23:44] <LtCol_Isotope{FWLM}-LW> here come pirates :P
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[23:44] <xcoyote`> Gunner, yeah.
[23:44] <GB|OwnsXC> Randy: any idea when this won't go in?
[23:44] <xcoyote`> No thanks I think I'll cut my losses and sell it first :-p
[23:44] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> I agree that losing a certain amount of your members should be a part of losing, but if the FL gets booted and no one suitable can take over, then the faction will crumble.
[23:44] <FeaR> how much you opening bid at?
[23:45] <xcoyote`> Tenshi, even if it's not the FL
[23:45] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> Sounds like a great way to get rid of empires. Especially considering non factioned empires can't receive cash transfers either
[23:45] <xcoyote`> You can't have a high lvl empire anymore
[23:45] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> And also, as xc and Gunner say, if the FL is booted not only does the ex-FL pay the losing costs (likely putting them into negative money), but they have no money to start a Faction up again.
[23:45] <xcoyote`> It will be v.hard to find a faction if you lose.
[23:45] <Randy> i think i've said everything i have to say right now. i'll continue in a few pms with people who are interested in talking (when i can get to each of you)
[23:45] <Snubber> old way = neveron, a land war based game new way = neveron, sims city
[23:45] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Well, thank you for your time Randy.
[23:45] <Randy> you guys are trying real hard to find a way to put a bad spin on this
[23:45] <Spyder_SemiAFK> thank you for your time
[23:45] <Randy> but i think you'll find it leads to a much more dynamic game
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[23:46] <Spyder_SemiAFK> good overall the 10% is my only concern
[23:46] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> PM me please if you'd like me to elaborate on the last thing I was talking about
[23:46] <Randy> where gb victims have a better chance of survival
[23:46] <Khan_Tenshi_Keller|Hates_Rats> Because it does have some logic to it.
[23:46] <After> most of the things we complain about go away in a day or two
[23:46] <fjcardoso{FWLM-C}LW> I liked all of this but 10% kicking
[23:46] <FeaR> i like the idea
[23:46] <fjcardoso{FWLM-C}LW> its too high
[23:46] <After> but would u look into the cheating with Dos?
[23:46] <Randy> and wars are much more enjoyable since you actually have a chance of standing up to a massive alliance
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[23:46] <Gunner_LastPool_InfoInNevmail> No After, he wont because if he does, he will be forced to admit he is wrong about the fine
[23:46] <Snubber> still have a problem understanding... <Randy> where gb victims have a better chance of survival
[23:46] <Randy> afk. pm if you have more to say, i'll read it as soon as i can (maybe not too soon, there are a lot of them)