Admin logs - Betting Arenas

This log dates from 1st April 2005.

[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> i want to make this clear from the beginning
[01/04 - 17:31] <jointedlimb> hey Randy
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> this is an explanation, not a discussion
[01/04 - 17:31] * Patryn sets mode: +o Randy
[01/04 - 17:31] <WingedPuma> anyway everyone listen u
[01/04 - 17:31] <WingedPuma> *up
[01/04 - 17:31] * Patryn sets mode: +m
[01/04 - 17:31] * Mortis (Mortis@CPE00400572ba51-CM0011aea50dfa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> i'm going to spend probably a half hour or so outlining this system
[01/04 - 17:31] <Patryn> now its an explanation
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> and explaining everything about it
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> thank you patryn
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> so sit back, enjoy the show
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> when i'm done i'll take a break
[01/04 - 17:31] <Randy> then maybe come back for questions
[01/04 - 17:32] <Randy> ok 1 sec to rearrange my windows here :)
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[01/04 - 17:32] <Randy> ok
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[01/04 - 17:32] <Randy> I want to start by looking at some numbers
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[01/04 - 17:32] <Randy> some probabilities and statistics and stuff
[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> any third grader can do this math, but i get the feeling many of you haven't yet.
[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> I will start with an assault mech duel
[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> the NGC bet is 100 mil
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[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> it often drops some, so it won't average 100, but 100 mil is a nice round number
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[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> and if people are paying attention and not boycotting duels, they'll catch them very close to 100 mil anyway
[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> lets look at a low betting case
[01/04 - 17:33] <Randy> lets say people bet 50 mil on each contestant
[01/04 - 17:34] <Randy> i know by todays standards that is absurdly high
[01/04 - 17:34] <Randy> bets are usually WAY below 50 mil
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[01/04 - 17:34] <Randy> i'm about to show why that is a big mistake
[01/04 - 17:34] <Randy> lets also say, for these examples, that you are betting 10 million
[01/04 - 17:34] <Randy> the size of the bet doesn't really matter since we're dealing with percentages by and large
[01/04 - 17:34] <Randy> 10 mil is another easy number to work with.
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[01/04 - 17:35] <Randy> when you bet 1 of 4 things will happen
[01/04 - 17:35] * weird{G} (weird_@sorbs.crty01m02-116.bctel.ca) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 17:35] <Randy> you'll either bet with the NGC and win ... with it and lose ... against the NGC and win ... or against the NGC and lose.
[01/04 - 17:35] <Randy> So we need to look at each case, and average them
[01/04 - 17:35] <Randy> becuase if you bet, even randomly, over time you'll average all 4 cases equally
[01/04 - 17:35] <Randy> so twice you lose. for those cases, you're out 20 million.
[01/04 - 17:36] <Randy> once you win, but the NGC bet the same way you did
[01/04 - 17:36] <Randy> so the total losing bets were 50 mil, total winning bets were 50 mil (remember, the NGC bet is removed if it wins ... it does not dilute earnings)
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[01/04 - 17:36] <Randy> so you're looking at 90% of the losing bets paid out
[01/04 - 17:36] <Randy> thats 45 mil
[01/04 - 17:37] <Randy> so on your 10 million bet, you get 19 mil, or a profit of $9 million
[01/04 - 17:37] <Randy> the fourth case, you win and the NGC bet against you
[01/04 - 17:37] <Randy> in that case there is 135 million paid out to the winning betters
[01/04 - 17:37] <Randy> (90% of 150 mil losing bets)
[01/04 - 17:37] <Patryn> randy kick nev server
[01/04 - 17:37] <Patryn> ty
[01/04 - 17:38] <Randy> your 10 mil bet in that case wins 37 million, a profit of 27 mil
[01/04 - 17:38] <Randy> so after all 4 bets ... you are up 27 + 9 - 10 - 10 = 16 million
[01/04 - 17:38] <Randy> or 4 million per bet on average
[01/04 - 17:38] <Randy> thats a 40% profit on every duel you bet on
[01/04 - 17:39] * Primalba (primalba@sorbs.pppwb67.htc.net) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 17:39] <Randy> for those of you who know anything about gambling or investing .... thats a HUGE profit.
[01/04 - 17:39] * Papito (Papito17@ool-4570bf73.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 17:39] <Randy> ok ... i know what the smart ones are thinking now .... "thats great when bets are small ... but once everyone realizes this and starts betting it breaks down."
[01/04 - 17:39] <Randy> exactly.
[01/04 - 17:39] <Randy> at what point does it break down?
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[01/04 - 17:40] <Randy> well, lets look at the same duel, but lets say instead of 50 mil bet on each contestant, there is 500 million bet
[01/04 - 17:40] <Randy> you're using the same 10 mil bet
[01/04 - 17:40] <Randy> ok twice you lose, you're out 20 mil there
[01/04 - 17:40] <Randy> once you win, wrong side, you make your 9 million
[01/04 - 17:40] <Randy> the time you win, right side, you make your share of the (90% of 600 million) 540 mil
[01/04 - 17:41] <Randy> that comes out to me a mere 10.8 million
[01/04 - 17:41] <Randy> so after 4 bets at those levels, you lost 200k, or 2%, or 0.5% of your capital on each bet
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[01/04 - 17:41] <Randy> so if people are betting 500 million on each assault duel contestant, on average you will slowly (very slowly) lose money
[01/04 - 17:42] <Randy> of course if you can pick the winner once in a while and get better than 50/50 odds you still make out well
[01/04 - 17:42] <Randy> but we're looking at averages here, assuming you flip a coin each time to see who to bet on, and place identically sized bets.
[01/04 - 17:42] <Randy> ok ... what did we learn so far?
[01/04 - 17:42] <Randy> we learned that if the bets on each side of a duel are less than 5x the NGC bet ... you're leaving money on the table.
[01/04 - 17:43] <Randy> So ... whats the best way to make money in the arenas today, right this instant?
[01/04 - 17:43] <Randy> bet!!
[01/04 - 17:43] <Randy> As soon as people figure that out, and they will (especially since I just explained it), the bets will start to hover around the profitability mark
[01/04 - 17:43] <Randy> just under, presumably, since people want to make money.
[01/04 - 17:44] <Randy> so basically, a level 10 empire would be very foolish not to drop 100 mil on every assault mech duel
[01/04 - 17:44] <Randy> ok
[01/04 - 17:44] <Randy> so i just showed you where the easy money is
[01/04 - 17:44] <Randy> and it doesn't matter if you're a dueler or not
[01/04 - 17:44] <Randy> if you bet you make money
[01/04 - 17:45] <Randy> if you're dueling and no one is betting, don't be a fool and bitch about it.
[01/04 - 17:45] <Randy> make the bet yourself and take the money.
[01/04 - 17:45] <Randy> just becuase most players don't understand elementary probability doesn't mean the smart ones shouldn't take advantage of that fact and collect the money thats been left lying around for you
[01/04 - 17:45] <Randy> there is another thing worth mentioning here
[01/04 - 17:46] <Randy> there is 111% of the total bets that get paid out (including the NGC bet!)
[01/04 - 17:46] <Randy> where does that money come from and where does it go?
[01/04 - 17:46] <Randy> lets say there are 50 assault duels a day. 2 per hour. in all liklihood there are really more than that.
[01/04 - 17:46] <Randy> lets say people STILL dont figure it out and only bet 100 mil each side even though they should be betting almost 500 mil.
[01/04 - 17:47] <Randy> thats still 200 mil player bets each time, plus 100 mil NGC bet.
[01/04 - 17:47] <Randy> So 300 mil total bets, averaging 150 mil each side.
[01/04 - 17:47] <Randy> 11% of that is 16.5 mil
[01/04 - 17:47] <Randy> thats the money that is added to the game from the ether ... magic money from heaven.
[01/04 - 17:47] <Randy> 50 duels, thats what, 825 million per day
[01/04 - 17:48] <Randy> thats only assault duels ... they are probably around 1/3 the money value of duels, so we're looking at around 2.5 billion per day
[01/04 - 17:48] <Randy> and like i said, i'm being very conservative here. Once people smarten up and start betting reasonably, we'll be looking EASILY at 10 billion a day added to the game.
[01/04 - 17:48] <Randy> Where does all that money go?
[01/04 - 17:49] <Randy> if we're talking about small bets, like the 2.5 billion example, then a lot of the extra money is going to betters.
[01/04 - 17:49] <Randy> most of it.
[01/04 - 17:49] <Randy> most lets look more intelligently at this system.
[01/04 - 17:49] <Randy> players are going to do everything they can to maximize returns in this gane, to squeeze every dollar our of every game system.
[01/04 - 17:49] <Randy> that will happen with dueling too.
[01/04 - 17:50] <Randy> probably quickly, now that i've explained it to those of you present here.
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[01/04 - 17:50] <Randy> When that happens we're looking at the 10 billion figure, but at the same time we're seeing that betters are nowmaking just a little money.
[01/04 - 17:50] <Randy> the bulk of the 10 billion goes ... where?
[01/04 - 17:51] <Randy> well its not going to the 90% of the bets that are paid out to the betters .. becuase they're now breaking even (well not quite, becuase people won't QUITE bet to the breakeven point)
[01/04 - 17:51] <Randy> So we're looking at the OTHER 21%
[01/04 - 17:51] <Randy> part of that goes to the owner of (0,0), but a small part
[01/04 - 17:51] <Randy> if you want to cash in there you need to be a big empire capable of fighting.
[01/04 - 17:51] <Randy> As we all know there aren't any big empires in the game capable of fighting with the exception of 1st NevCom, who already owns (0,0)
[01/04 - 17:52] <Randy> The rest is split 50/50 between the winner of the match, and those who have high dueling standings.
[01/04 - 17:52] <Randy> Yes folks, thats right, the people who are actually doing the dueling will be making the profit.
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[01/04 - 17:53] <Randy> If bets are 400 mil each way, say, on an assault then the winner will collect 45 mil on average (including the 50/50 change of the 100 mil NGC bet) plus a doubling (a little over actually) of what they bet on themselves.
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[01/04 - 17:53] <Randy> Yeah its not te 100 mil like it was last week, but i think its pretty widely known that that figure was way too high.
[01/04 - 17:53] <Randy> You guys liked it becuase you were making money faster than empires who have played the game for years and years, but it was way out of line with every other neveron income source and you all know it.
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[01/04 - 17:54] <Randy> And the other money? the potentially 5 billion a day?
[01/04 - 17:54] <Randy> That goes to those with high rankings. And they deserve it. If you are the best and most active dueler you make BANK.
[01/04 - 17:54] <Randy> I'm ok with that.
[01/04 - 17:55] <Randy> I think some of you should go back and read this last bit again. The profit under a working system is VERY high and it goes to the duelers, and a disproportionate amount goes to the GOOD duelers who get ranked.
[01/04 - 17:55] * jointedlimb (thisismysp@d206-116-46-198.bchsia.telus.net) has left #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 17:55] <Randy> And if people can't figure out that betting pays off in spades at todays low levels, then by all means make the easy money by betting, be it on yourself in a duel, or on everyone else.
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> There was a forum post by, I believe, Tigre this morning who was saying that he was testing the betting with 8 empires or something like that and they were all ahead at this point.
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[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> To anyone with the third grade math skills, that should be painfully obvious.
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> ok
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> last thing.
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[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> i actually wrote some of this already, its about cheating, let me copy/paste it here.
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> ok the last thing here is cheating. You all remember the old arenas where with
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> a few clints and cheap vehicles you could hit an assault lance and collect
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> 2 billion all day long. I don't think most of you realize how prevalent that
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> was. Even at a smaller scale, where you buy two clints off the market and duel
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> them, and come out WAY ahead. The old style arenas were a way of dumping
[01/04 - 17:56] <Randy> massive amounts of money into the hands of players who abused the system. With
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> a fixed, very high payout we saw a huge influx of money into the game.
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> That abuse-rewarding system had other huge problems too. Namely that newbies
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> could not participate in any way. Only a small part of the player base dueled,
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> and dueling should be enjoyable and rewarding for everyone becuase its the best
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> way to learn the meat of the game, which is combat.
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> The new system, by which i mean prior to yesterday, was better in some ways
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> and worse in others. It allowed wider participation which was a HUGE step
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> forward. We see today empires of all sizes and skills dueling, which is
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> wonderful and keeps more players interested in the game.
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> It also failed miserably in other ways. Namely the ability to abuse the system
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> and make billions, in some cases tens of billions, with virtually no effort
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> and without any need to master other facets of the game. Many of you in this
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> room have gone from nothing to multi-billionaire in a month or less by
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> collecting the massive payouts from these arenas. The game is NOT supposed to
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> be that easy and one-dimensional.
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> It was also a cheaters wet-dream. Garaunteed prize with no loss. Why not just
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> hand everyone $50 billion when they create an empire? For all intents and
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> purposes, thats what we were doing.
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> The new system is virtually cheat-proof. I haven't seen ANYONE yet come up
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> with a way to cheat reliably. I illustrated above that when the system is
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> working, almost all the profit falls into two main places - those who win
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> the match, and those ranked highly on the standings. You simply CANNOT cheat
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> your way to a high arena standing. The 5+ minute enrollment period means that
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> anyone can hit any arena. You're not going to be able to pre-arrange enough
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> fights to get to the top.
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> Throwing those fights where you DO get your pre-selected cheating opponent?
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> Sure, and you will make some money off that. Not anywhere NEAR what you made
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> before. And the beauty of this is that the bulk of what you win is money
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> from betters. And betters are watching you. Yes, its like a little police
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> force watching every duel you fight. If you are throwing your matches, the
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> betters see you, and they get upset, and pretty soon you log in one morning
[01/04 - 17:57] <Randy> to see that you surrendered to a group of angry betters.
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> So if you can't cheat by throwing matches, and you can't cheat by getting
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> to the top rank, how can you cheat? By taking (0,0)? Please. By betting?
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> Well, when bets are at reasonable amounts there is simply not a lot of money
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> to be made here. This is probably your best bet:
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> Start an assault duel, and fairly quickly bet up the whole 500 million on
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[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> both sides with an assortment of empires. Obviously you need big empires to
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> do this becuase of the betting caps, which is an obstacle for most cheaters.
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> When the match starts, see which way the NGC bet lands, and throw the fight
[01/04 - 17:58] <Randy> accordingly. Well, first you're not always going to get your pre-arranged
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[01/04 - 17:58] <Patryn> <@Randy> accordingly. Well, first you're not always going to get your pre-arranged
[01/04 - 17:58] <Patryn> last line received
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[01/04 - 17:59] * Patryn sets mode: +o Randy_
[01/04 - 17:59] <Randy> .
[01/04 - 17:59] <Randy> ok let me find where i was .. i was almost done
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> haven't figured it out yet.
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> But is that cheating? No, betting is what everyone should be doing. If only
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> no
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> heh 1 sec
[01/04 - 18:00] <Patryn> <Randy> accordingly. Well, first you're not always going to get your pre-arranged
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> fight becuase other people will enroll. Assuming you can get one or two a day,
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> you're not going to get all the bets in becuase others will jump in, always.
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> But you can get MOST of the bets. Third, you're not going to know which way
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> to throw the fight. Obviously you can't throw it either way, becuase then
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> you're looking at units piling up, eventually, 3 losses. Making a small slice
[01/04 - 18:00] <Randy> off the NGC bet three times is not going to pay for your assault mech.
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> And how small a slice? Tiny. If you're betting the break-even, then you're looking
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> at the 90% dueling payout being a wash, with 10% coming back as your winners
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> prize. Thats only 100%. No profit there.
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> Cheating with bets is only going to work with large-NGC bets (mech duels)
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> where the overall betting is so low that you can earn the 40% I mentioned
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> initially. Today, for example, you can make much more than that becuase people
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> haven't figured it out yet.
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> But is that cheating? No, betting is what everyone should be doing. If only
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> one person is smart enough to take that money, I'm not going to call that
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> cheating. However that concern IS the reason level 0 empires cannot bet,
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> and that you may only place a few bets at a time at lower level, and that the
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> betting limit is capped. All those measures together make betting cheating
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> impossible.
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> We finally have a system that rewards the duelers, gives newbies a great way
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> to make cash (particularly by betting), gives a lot of money to the top
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> duelers, and is essentially cheat proof.
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> ******************************************************************************
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> OK
[01/04 - 18:01] <Randy> thats it
[01/04 - 18:02] <Randy> i'll be back in 15 min or so to talk about this if people can stay calm and polite and patiently wait for each other to talk and such.
[01/04 - 18:02] * Randy_ sets mode: -m
[01/04 - 18:02] <mattbuck> ok.... who will scream first?
[01/04 - 18:02] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> me
[01/04 - 18:02] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> May I?
[01/04 - 18:02] <jointedlimb> he is dreaming
[01/04 - 18:02] <nX-306> me
[01/04 - 18:02] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> im not bothered about the arenas
[01/04 - 18:02] * Bosso screams
[01/04 - 18:02] * Den sream and run around!
[01/04 - 18:02] <Shattered> Yeah, a couple holes in his arguments.
[01/04 - 18:02] <jointedlimb> bets arent made on any joe smoe
[01/04 - 18:02] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> im bothered about the 75% maintainance
[01/04 - 18:02] <dezc> lots of holes
[01/04 - 18:02] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus patiently raises his hand
[01/04 - 18:02] <WingedPuma> ok now i understand arenas lol
[01/04 - 18:02] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> when u go into neg money
[01/04 - 18:02] <mattbuck> OK, betting up on how long it takes Peel to start humping Randy!
[01/04 - 18:03] <WingedPuma> put me down for $5m
[01/04 - 18:03] <jointedlimb> they are made by people who think X empire is going to win
[01/04 - 18:03] <Primalba-work> atleast with the old system you had to build money to deul
[01/04 - 18:03] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> he is assuming that people are gonna bet 50/50 more or less
[01/04 - 18:03] <dezc> no way there's going to be equal bets on everybody
[01/04 - 18:03] <jointedlimb> yeah
[01/04 - 18:03] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> no
[01/04 - 18:03] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> no way
[01/04 - 18:03] <Den> i bet never again i will make raneas...
[01/04 - 18:03] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> esepcially with high repred units vs low
[01/04 - 18:03] <jointedlimb> betting was never the problem
[01/04 - 18:03] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> cause unless huge upset
[01/04 - 18:03] <jointedlimb> the problem
[01/04 - 18:03] <dezc> face it...even the rep of the empire counts
[01/04 - 18:03] <jointedlimb> was the shit reward you got for winning a duel
[01/04 - 18:04] <Remano> the problem is it takes 5years to get into a bloody duel
[01/04 - 18:04] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> yeah noob vs pancho
[01/04 - 18:04] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> wont fly well
[01/04 - 18:04] <Den> i like duels, but i don't go to put a mech fr 3 millions....
[01/04 - 18:04] <dezc> got like 2.5 mil for winning 3 med mech arenas
[01/04 - 18:04] <Den> i don't wanna lost skill for that
[01/04 - 18:04] <jointedlimb> lol
[01/04 - 18:04] <jointedlimb> yeah
[01/04 - 18:04] <Shattered> Statistically, an uneven bet doesn't shoot down his argument
[01/04 - 18:04] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> although not having the pilot fry is nice
[01/04 - 18:04] <jointedlimb> okay
[01/04 - 18:04] <Shattered> It only redistributes the income towards the betters of the underdog.
[01/04 - 18:04] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> it will control inflation
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> if we are going to kill this insane idea of randys
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> we should do it in a concise
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> united front way
[01/04 - 18:05] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus gets his flamethrower out
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> someone should present the objections and arguments
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> and only one person
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> patryn or myself
[01/04 - 18:05] <Capreolus> well volunteered, jl
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> or someone
[01/04 - 18:05] <Bosso> well
[01/04 - 18:05] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> i can do it
[01/04 - 18:05] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> im diplimatic
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> heh
[01/04 - 18:05] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> you can pm me with quesitons
[01/04 - 18:05] <Quack> shattered- you assume the underdog wins
[01/04 - 18:05] <Den> lol
[01/04 - 18:05] * necigrad (necigrad@necigrad.Users.AfterNET.Org) has left #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:05] <jointedlimb> i was thinking someone who is a heavy DPer
[01/04 - 18:05] <Capreolus> even though you can't spell diplomatic
[01/04 - 18:05] <Den> go snow, go!
[01/04 - 18:05] <dezc> could we like create another channel...
[01/04 - 18:06] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> ah
[01/04 - 18:06] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> i see
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> might have more shall we say weight with randy
[01/04 - 18:06] <dezc> so that we can talk behind his back
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> shrugs
[01/04 - 18:06] <dezc> and present a united front over here
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> we arent swearing at him
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> if he dont like what we are saying
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> tough
[01/04 - 18:06] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> well first of all
[01/04 - 18:06] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> be polite
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> well
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> maybe not polite
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> but definetly
[01/04 - 18:06] <jointedlimb> not rude
[01/04 - 18:06] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> it sounds good but people are gonna bet to win not to lose
[01/04 - 18:06] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> yeah
[01/04 - 18:07] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> forcefull
[01/04 - 18:07] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> :-P
[01/04 - 18:07] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> the only thing i can tell this will help is inflation with the nev
[01/04 - 18:07] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> and that right their is a tough one to swallow
[01/04 - 18:07] <jointedlimb> he is explaining it like this will cause huge empire growth
[01/04 - 18:07] <jointedlimb> when most of the older players
[01/04 - 18:07] <jointedlimb> KNOW that he is trying to slow growth
[01/04 - 18:08] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> yeah
[01/04 - 18:08] <jointedlimb> so this 10 bil a RL day
[01/04 - 18:08] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> that and are cautious peeps for the most part
[01/04 - 18:08] <Shattered> Well, from his explanation, it's the older players that benefit
[01/04 - 18:08] <jointedlimb> is just pure BS
[01/04 - 18:08] * vader (vader@24-155-169-195.dyn.grandenetworks.net) has left #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:08] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> conservitive
[01/04 - 18:08] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> but were trying to get more new peeps into this game
[01/04 - 18:08] <buddy> he's not goint to slow empire growthwith this, maybe other things
[01/04 - 18:08] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> inflation
[01/04 - 18:08] <jointedlimb> shrugs
[01/04 - 18:08] <jointedlimb> the old arena system was fine
[01/04 - 18:09] <jointedlimb> dont know why he ever changed it
[01/04 - 18:09] <Li_Ra> um
[01/04 - 18:09] <dezc> the older one? or the old one?
[01/04 - 18:09] <jointedlimb> the only thing that needed adjusting
[01/04 - 18:09] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> people were cheating like hell
[01/04 - 18:09] <jointedlimb> was the arena caps
[01/04 - 18:09] <jointedlimb> the one from before this betting crap
[01/04 - 18:09] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> yeah the caps were annoying
[01/04 - 18:09] <Li_Ra> I'd rather not have you duelers make all the cash unless you are good aka top 10
[01/04 - 18:09] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> hmm
[01/04 - 18:09] <buddy> Why did he take away the old arenas before we had an incentive to bet?
[01/04 - 18:09] <jointedlimb> ah
[01/04 - 18:09] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> well considering that the situations change IE some bettings happen at better times
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> well Li_Ra
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> most of the top ten
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> in mechs anyways
[01/04 - 18:10] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> some people are gonna be pretty allienated
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> arent really duelers
[01/04 - 18:10] <Li_Ra> so
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> but peeps with ac20 mechs
[01/04 - 18:10] <Li_Ra> beat them
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> which is BS
[01/04 - 18:10] <Quack> jointed has a point
[01/04 - 18:10] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus has a hatchetman that is working up their
[01/04 - 18:10] <Li_Ra> use ac-20 mechs yourself
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> when Klien, Xeno and Drag beat you
[01/04 - 18:10] <Quack> look at the chargers
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> they would use all kinds of mechs
[01/04 - 18:10] <Quack> ive made top ten in 3 different mech classes
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> chargers are only that way
[01/04 - 18:10] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> inf
[01/04 - 18:10] * ilKhan_Arden_Pryde (arden@arden.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:10] <Quack> and im not that good
[01/04 - 18:10] <jointedlimb> cause people hit them with vehicles
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> those are the 1Ls
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> the crap version with no armour and a slew of SLs
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> right
[01/04 - 18:11] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> which is only good for charging
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> basically these new arenas
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> have really brought back
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> the trap arenas
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> which is BS
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> i like arenas to be skill
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> not traps that unless you hit with a counter trap
[01/04 - 18:11] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> if yer not a moron you can tell a trap apart from anything new
[01/04 - 18:11] <jointedlimb> your dead
[01/04 - 18:11] <Remano> well to bad skill has no part in making money any more
[01/04 - 18:12] <jointedlimb> lol
[01/04 - 18:12] <Shattered> Well, Randy's prediction have come true already... There's a NGC Bonus bet of 17.8M, and the player contributed bets are already 70M More than 5x the NGC bonus.
[01/04 - 18:12] <buddy> they at least got rid of the 10x10 arenas
[01/04 - 18:12] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> true
[01/04 - 18:12] <Quack> ya knwo what i miss the most?
[01/04 - 18:12] * ilprincipe (Myriade@schlangenbiss.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:12] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> although watching a TX-S2 go to work is what I miss
[01/04 - 18:12] <ilprincipe> hiho :D
[01/04 - 18:12] <Quack> the ability to cancel an arnea if i had to go and no one hit it
[01/04 - 18:12] <jointedlimb> yeah
[01/04 - 18:12] <jointedlimb> and challenge arenas
[01/04 - 18:12] <jointedlimb> so you can just mess around with a buddy
[01/04 - 18:12] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> hmm
[01/04 - 18:12] <jointedlimb> and not have to worry about anything
[01/04 - 18:12] <Quack> challenge arenas should e suggested
[01/04 - 18:13] <Quack> i used thema few times to learn from opponents
[01/04 - 18:13] <buddy> X-S
[01/04 - 18:13] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> if randy were to code a new questing system and use a betting with that
[01/04 - 18:13] <Quack> without the hassle of betting etc
[01/04 - 18:13] * Madt|lying_in_the_sun wants to know who is going to talk to randy
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> ill do it
[01/04 - 18:13] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> ok
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> unless some older, or bigger person wants too
[01/04 - 18:13] <Shattered> Make sure your argument is bullet proof though.
[01/04 - 18:13] <ilprincipe> what about smaller empires?
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> well
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> thats the thing
[01/04 - 18:13] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> im not sure who is older then I
[01/04 - 18:13] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> except jointed
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> he should make small empires
[01/04 - 18:13] <Madt|lying_in_the_sun> ppl what are the facts now for JL
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> grow faster
[01/04 - 18:13] <ilprincipe> :S
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> till X level say 5 or something
[01/04 - 18:13] <jointedlimb> then throw up walls to growing
[01/04 - 18:14] <Remano> so what was the reason he is throwing a ton of cash at nimon? i missed that bit?
[01/04 - 18:14] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> well couldnt randy balance it out by cutting the skill lose
[01/04 - 18:14] <jointedlimb> well
[01/04 - 18:14] * Madt|lying_in_the_sun wants the chance to cancel arenas (some time 10 min), doesnt like skill downs
[01/04 - 18:14] <jointedlimb> if 10 billion in bets happened in 1 day
[01/04 - 18:14] <jointedlimb> nimon would get 100 mil
[01/04 - 18:14] * Madt|lying_in_the_sun (Schmfjsdlf@p54921342.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has left #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:15] <ilprincipe> it was possible to grow faster, when you bought eg an ostroc and go into arenas -> it was perfect fot new players ... as they did not immediatly lose a mech he has maybe saved up for 2 weeks ...
[01/04 - 18:15] <Shattered> That's the change in the back seat of his Stone Rhinos to him, I'm sure.
[01/04 - 18:15] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> perhapes
[01/04 - 18:15] <jointedlimb> yeah
[01/04 - 18:15] <jointedlimb> and another main point
[01/04 - 18:15] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> for all we know he is prob saving up for a huge nuke war
[01/04 - 18:15] <jointedlimb> people duel for only 3 reasons
[01/04 - 18:15] <jointedlimb> maybe 4
[01/04 - 18:15] <jointedlimb> 1. To have fun
[01/04 - 18:15] <ilprincipe> -> have fun
[01/04 - 18:15] <jointedlimb> 2. to make money
[01/04 - 18:15] <ilprincipe> :p
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> 3. to make a point to another player
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> 4. Too bored to do anything else
[01/04 - 18:16] <Quack> jointedlimb
[01/04 - 18:16] <Quack> 5. to test a new mech
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> if the duelers dont make money
[01/04 - 18:16] <Remano> ok reason 1 not possible anymore neither is 3 and you get more bored waiting than its worth
[01/04 - 18:16] <Den> -- show i'm not a newbie anymore
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> okay
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> 5
[01/04 - 18:16] <Shattered> 6. To try to skill down.
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> lol
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> LW
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> safer
[01/04 - 18:16] <Quack> lw for skilldowns. better chance.
[01/04 - 18:16] <Shattered> But that's probably not done any more due to skill UPs from losing
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> unless your good at dueling
[01/04 - 18:16] <jointedlimb> yeah
[01/04 - 18:17] <Shattered> Hmm, safer for the mech in the short term - less chance of retaliatory strike in the long run :P
[01/04 - 18:17] <jointedlimb> shrugs
[01/04 - 18:17] <jointedlimb> its a war game
[01/04 - 18:17] <buddy> The "Randy is against us all" theory forpay off for zone (1, 1) us that he want's people constantly waring over the zone, so a constant rate of dp mechs get destroyed, which have to be replaced
[01/04 - 18:17] <jointedlimb> id rather hit
[01/04 - 18:17] * benhur (KELEBEK@85.97.169.113) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:17] <jointedlimb> 0,0 actually buddy
[01/04 - 18:17] <benhur> hi
[01/04 - 18:17] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> hmm
[01/04 - 18:17] <jointedlimb> oh should i call you incrediboy?
[01/04 - 18:17] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> 0,0 would have to be nuked anyways just to take it
[01/04 - 18:17] <KD> skill ups can be easily unmade by dp - good for randy
[01/04 - 18:18] <jointedlimb> nah
[01/04 - 18:18] <jointedlimb> hoC managed to take it
[01/04 - 18:18] <jointedlimb> i think a year ago
[01/04 - 18:18] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> breifly
[01/04 - 18:18] <jointedlimb> just werent able to keep it
[01/04 - 18:18] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> cause it became a total free for all
[01/04 - 18:18] * buddy (user@pm482-40.dialip.mich.net) Quit (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)
[01/04 - 18:18] <jointedlimb> heh
[01/04 - 18:18] * benhur (KELEBEK@85.97.169.113) Quit (Quit)
[01/04 - 18:18] <jointedlimb> guess he didnt get my joke
[01/04 - 18:19] <KD> I'd say defenses in 0,0 have improved mightily
[01/04 - 18:19] * Randy_ sets mode: +m
[01/04 - 18:19] <Randy> i just thought of another thing
[01/04 - 18:19] <Randy> there are 2 main types of duelers
[01/04 - 18:19] <Randy> those who want to make money, and those who like to duel for fun and bragging rights
[01/04 - 18:19] <Randy> well the second group, obviously, doesn't care. They can still duel all they want, they
[01/04 - 18:19] <Randy> can still get to number one in the standings, etc
[01/04 - 18:20] <Randy> adn they even make some money, which is fun considering you never risk anything
[01/04 - 18:20] <Randy> those who are concerned with making money
[01/04 - 18:20] <Randy> well ... i just spent a half hour explaining in agonizing detail how to make money with the new system
[01/04 - 18:20] <Randy> i think the people who are complaining
[01/04 - 18:20] <Randy> are those who wanted to make a S***load of money with virtually no effort, in very little time
[01/04 - 18:21] <Randy> well guess what ... you can't do that anymore. Now you have to play the same game that every other
[01/04 - 18:21] <Randy> player has played for the last 4 years
[01/04 - 18:21] * Randy_ sets mode: -m
[01/04 - 18:21] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> im the 2nd group :-P
[01/04 - 18:21] <WingedPuma> randy, does that mean we never lose our mechs now?
[01/04 - 18:21] <Randy> same as ever WP, 3rd loss is final.
[01/04 - 18:21] <jointedlimb> Randy,
[01/04 - 18:21] <WingedPuma> oh :(
[01/04 - 18:21] <Bosso> er, i don't use the arenas and i'm complaining, go figure
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> a few of us had objections and ideas
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> first of all
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> your right
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> people do duel for money
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> and your right
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> in the old days a duel would take 20 mins
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> and they could make 100 mil plus
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> but
[01/04 - 18:22] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> nevs been around longer than 4 years randy :P
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> now they duel for 2 hours
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> nd make like 2 million
[01/04 - 18:22] <Den> yes...
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> its gone from one extreme to the other
[01/04 - 18:22] <Randy> if your goal is to make money JL ... you should be betting not dueling.
[01/04 - 18:22] <jointedlimb> some middle ground would be preferable
[01/04 - 18:23] <jointedlimb> betting is boring randy
[01/04 - 18:23] <WingedPuma> what hes trying to say i think is some people dont have the kind of time
[01/04 - 18:23] <jointedlimb> also
[01/04 - 18:23] <Den> but %50 of the game, is battletech...
[01/04 - 18:23] <jointedlimb> 2 features of the old arenas that most of us used and liked
[01/04 - 18:23] <jointedlimb> are now gone
[01/04 - 18:23] <Randy> ok hang on a sec
[01/04 - 18:23] <Randy> if you like dueling, and you like making money
[01/04 - 18:23] <Randy> why not duel for fun, and while you're dueling place some bets (on yourself, or other duels) and make your money?
[01/04 - 18:24] * Quack waits his turn but asks to make a simple statement when possible
[01/04 - 18:24] <Remano> you cant duel for fun anymore the wait kills all the fun
[01/04 - 18:24] * MadT (Schmfjsdlf@p54921342.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:24] <ilprincipe> the problem is: is a mech really worth duelling any more then?
[01/04 - 18:24] <jointedlimb> why not have standard prizes for each class
[01/04 - 18:24] <weird{G}> We still going to get the option of making our own arena's in physical nev?
[01/04 - 18:24] * nicklamer is now known as nicklamer|saufen
[01/04 - 18:24] <ilprincipe> it´s a lose/lose situation concerning risk ...
[01/04 - 18:24] <Den> is sad fight for 1:30 hours, lst the arena, lost skill...
[01/04 - 18:24] <jointedlimb> say 20 mil for each mech class
[01/04 - 18:24] <jointedlimb> and these are absolute
[01/04 - 18:24] <weird{G}> ie class system proposed
[01/04 - 18:24] <Randy> ok you guys keep bringing up the time issue .... thats unrelated. But if you think you have to wait a long time now you should talk to drag or klien who would wait 4 hours for a duel, or krait who would sit in the woods for 6 hours.......
[01/04 - 18:25] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> hehe
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> lol
[01/04 - 18:25] <Remano> i dont mind waiting IN a duel
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> well then
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> remove the time limit at least
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> twice i was dueling
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> and i almost had the guy
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> he started stalling
[01/04 - 18:25] <Randy> god no. duels are long enough already, you just pointed that out (and I agree completely)
[01/04 - 18:25] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> the decreasing NGC bet isnt cool as well
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> and it became a draw
[01/04 - 18:25] <jointedlimb> simply cause i ran outta time
[01/04 - 18:26] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus raises his hand with a idea on the subject
[01/04 - 18:26] <Neonwraith> that happend to me too
[01/04 - 18:26] <Randy> Quack ... whats your question/statement?
[01/04 - 18:26] <jointedlimb> anyways snowfox go, and then ill post 2 ideas that we liked from the old arenas
[01/04 - 18:26] <KD> you just can't close the damn arena anymore. So you might wait for an hour, even if the terrain isn't good, and risk your stuff for 10 bucks
[01/04 - 18:26] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> couldnt we use a timing system that watchs to see if the timmer is being run that would effect the overall duel time
[01/04 - 18:27] <Mortis> Hmm maybe introduce something where in an arena if a person stops making active attempts to win after a certain amount of turns they lose
[01/04 - 18:27] <jointedlimb> 1. the ability to cancel arena, if no one hits it, or yes as KD says if the terrain isnt good
[01/04 - 18:27] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> like stalling and not moving
[01/04 - 18:27] <Quack> Randy - I am new to this game. I find the long waits to be very hard on patience and not fun
[01/04 - 18:27] <Quack> I now play megamek to practice dueling. with other members here. who hate hte waits
[01/04 - 18:27] <jointedlimb> 2. challenge arenas, this will siphon off the fun duelers, since they dont have to risk their mechs, and will provide a useful training tool for noobs
[01/04 - 18:27] <Randy> i agree quack. we will probably, in the not-so-distant future, add a simulation option
[01/04 - 18:27] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> what about a mission option?
[01/04 - 18:27] <Randy> where you simply click "fight now!" and you get dropped into a random fight against a random opponent
[01/04 - 18:28] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> oh boy we've heard that 'not-so-distant' thing before :P
[01/04 - 18:28] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> like go on missions
[01/04 - 18:28] <Randy> it will be instant gratification for those who just want to duel
[01/04 - 18:28] * ilKhan_Arden_Pryde points back to MDPs
[01/04 - 18:28] * casper` (Real@casper.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:28] <Remano> i love you randy, why didnt you just say that
[01/04 - 18:28] <casper`> hola
[01/04 - 18:28] * jointedlimb points at Empire Classes
[01/04 - 18:28] <Randy> i forgot about it until quack reminded me :)
[01/04 - 18:28] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus snickers
[01/04 - 18:28] * Quack nods. that would solve most my complaints about new system
[01/04 - 18:28] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> lol
[01/04 - 18:28] <ilprincipe> <Randy> where you simply click "fight now!" and you get dropped into a random fight against a random opponent -> that´s a great idea!!!!! :D
[01/04 - 18:28] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> post-it notes rock
[01/04 - 18:28] <WingedPuma> a duel sim would be great
[01/04 - 18:28] <WingedPuma> award no money
[01/04 - 18:28] <WingedPuma> just training
[01/04 - 18:28] <jointedlimb> yeah
[01/04 - 18:28] <KD> no rep?
[01/04 - 18:28] <Randy> right. no money, no risk, no nothing ... just a little sim
[01/04 - 18:28] <Mortis> yeah that would be fun
[01/04 - 18:28] <WingedPuma> yeh
[01/04 - 18:29] <Shattered> If there's no risk, there should be no reward either.
[01/04 - 18:29] <jointedlimb> but as Randy tried to code in, but there were instances of it failing
[01/04 - 18:29] <Shattered> No skill downs, no rep.
[01/04 - 18:29] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> randy how many DP would i get for sending you a packet of post-it notes to remind yo uto do things?
[01/04 - 18:29] <jointedlimb> no skilldowns either
[01/04 - 18:29] <jointedlimb> well
[01/04 - 18:29] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> ;)
[01/04 - 18:29] <Randy> lol arden
[01/04 - 18:29] <WingedPuma> if you would implement that it would more then likely bring in a new wave of next gen duelers
[01/04 - 18:29] <Patryn> arden u cant write things down before sending of course
[01/04 - 18:29] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> of course i can he'll forget most of this stuff :P
[01/04 - 18:29] <dezc> lol, everyone will be dueling, and no one would actually be building his empire
[01/04 - 18:29] <Randy> i actually believe most people would rather wait the 15 min to start, but have a shot at making money and climbing standings .... but i've been wrong before, time will tell.
[01/04 - 18:30] <Patryn> i figured u would send things like, give arden a lance of rhinos etc
[01/04 - 18:30] <dezc> it's virtual reality in a VR world
[01/04 - 18:30] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> no i have that already pat
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> randy PM
[01/04 - 18:30] <Patryn> oh well then 100 1k building zones
[01/04 - 18:30] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> that would be nice
[01/04 - 18:30] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> all in a big square
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> jointedlimb> i always though you shoulda just tweaked the old system a bit
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> now
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> 80% of the top mechs
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> are trap mechs
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> ac20 or that dam charger-1L
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> and that shouldnt be
[01/04 - 18:30] <Den> gimme a lance of COM! :D
[01/04 - 18:30] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> dueling should partly be based on skill
[01/04 - 18:31] <jointedlimb> <jointedlimb> though ac20 is ultimate equilizer
[01/04 - 18:31] <Randy> lots of people are killing chargers with regularity now
[01/04 - 18:31] <KD> nope, randy
[01/04 - 18:31] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> noobs
[01/04 - 18:31] <Randy> and as most of you know i adjust bvs of several units daily to reflect recent arena performance.
[01/04 - 18:31] <KD> chargers time out
[01/04 - 18:31] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus nods
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You stagger from the damage!
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You make a piloting skill roll!
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> Modified Pilot Skill: BTH 6 Roll: 2
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You fall over from all the damage!!
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You try to avoid taking damage in the fall.
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You make a piloting skill roll!
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> Modified Pilot Skill: BTH 6 Roll: 2
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You take personal injury from the fall!
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> You attempt to keep consciousness!
[01/04 - 18:31] <jointedlimb> lol
[01/04 - 18:31] <weird{G}> Retain Conciousness on: 5 Roll: 3
[01/04 - 18:31] <jointedlimb> oh ya
[01/04 - 18:32] <weird{G}> Consciousness slips away from you as you enter a sea of darkness...
[01/04 - 18:32] <weird{G}> sorry
[01/04 - 18:32] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> ?
[01/04 - 18:32] <weird{G}> mispaste
[01/04 - 18:32] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> lol
[01/04 - 18:32] <weird{G}> sorry that was my rolls on the 3030 mux
[01/04 - 18:32] <jointedlimb> there is something wrong with arenas, mechs are falling when they shouldnt be
[01/04 - 18:32] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> nod
[01/04 - 18:32] <ilprincipe> not any more ...
[01/04 - 18:32] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> thats fixed JL
[01/04 - 18:32] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> i think the bv of the swiftie should be adjusted, im told by a reliable source that it is an almighty killing tool
[01/04 - 18:32] <ilprincipe> i think this was fixed
[01/04 - 18:32] <weird{G}> May designate one Arena City (1000 building only) <--- when can we expect this?
[01/04 - 18:32] <jointedlimb> lol
[01/04 - 18:32] <Randy> people would do well to put a sft in some veh lances that go against mechs actually blane.
[01/04 - 18:32] <casper`> how about we can create our own arena cities.. with our own rules?
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[01/04 - 18:33] <Randy> that 9 BV or whatever is WELL worth it in a lot of cases.
[01/04 - 18:33] <casper`> so each arena system is different depending on who's arena city
[01/04 - 18:33] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> yeah
[01/04 - 18:33] <KD> practically 90 percent of the Charger losses result FROM double kills, and result IN very well-deserved pissed off light mech pilots who just wasted 2 hours of their life for a lost fight they should have won.
[01/04 - 18:33] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> well no that wouldnt work
[01/04 - 18:33] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> i often use swifities in lance duels
[01/04 - 18:34] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> the good swftie mind
[01/04 - 18:34] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> not 1 of the rubbish 2
[01/04 - 18:34] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> could be set the arena's to a mission style system where you can do DM Capture the Flag, or defend take, and or kig of the hill?
[01/04 - 18:34] <Randy> people would also do well to put their mechs in lances with 3 low bv units, inf even
[01/04 - 18:34] <Dag-Semi> <Randy> As soon as people figure that out, and they will (especially since I just explained it), the bets will start to hover around the profitability mark
[01/04 - 18:34] <Dag-Semi> <Randy> just under, presumably, since people want to make money.
[01/04 - 18:34] <Dag-Semi> This maybe right during US prime times... But I saw non US primetimes when there are only 0-4 arenas around and then I doubt any of the arenas will get enough bets to be worth the risk.
[01/04 - 18:34] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus agrees wotj Se,o
[01/04 - 18:34] <jointedlimb> dag has a point
[01/04 - 18:34] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> with semi*
[01/04 - 18:35] <jointedlimb> maybe make the Nev bet variable with users online
[01/04 - 18:35] <ilprincipe> one point: why can´t the pilots be paid out at least A BIT more ... alst time with an assault mech 3 million ... it´s just - VERY low ...
[01/04 - 18:35] <jointedlimb> more when less peeps are on
[01/04 - 18:35] <jointedlimb> or something
[01/04 - 18:35] * Boycottingarena|_Damz (unknown@cpc1-eswd2-6-0-cust37.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:35] <ilprincipe> let´s say overall bet 10% ...
[01/04 - 18:35] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> hello
[01/04 - 18:35] <WingedPuma> ja earlier around 10am GMT (london) there were no arenas
[01/04 - 18:35] <Randy> dag it sounds like you're still thinking that dueling is a primary income source .... during times like that if you want to get rich without dueling your way to high rank ... bet instead. if you like dueling, duel for fun while you make money elsewhere.
[01/04 - 18:35] <Den> too late Damz
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[01/04 - 18:35] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> my pc blew up so i had to find my old one in the attic :(
[01/04 - 18:35] <Randy> dueling is not and should not be a primary income source for anyone, unless you can get to a top ranking!
[01/04 - 18:36] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> randy out of curiosity how am i suppose to lw, my income is neg 2mill a day, only got 140 mill
[01/04 - 18:36] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> and cant make cash from arena's
[01/04 - 18:36] <Randy> umm
[01/04 - 18:36] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> cant lw or duel
[01/04 - 18:36] <Den> AWS vs KGC, bet open!
[01/04 - 18:36] <WingedPuma> to be honest
[01/04 - 18:36] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> whaty makes me mad randy, look at the top 10 assaults for instance
[01/04 - 18:36] <Randy> why is your income -2 mil a day
[01/04 - 18:36] <WingedPuma> your just going to have to adjust
[01/04 - 18:36] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> who am I facing in that one?
[01/04 - 18:36] <Randy> you screwed up big time somewhere along the way
[01/04 - 18:36] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> either a charger or an ac/20(at least 1) till 8th
[01/04 - 18:36] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> i went on a spending spree and bought sum dueling mechs
[01/04 - 18:36] <WingedPuma> LW empires usually have low income
[01/04 - 18:36] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> which r now useless
[01/04 - 18:36] <Den> lets start to make money :P
[01/04 - 18:36] <Blaze> oversized military prob
[01/04 - 18:36] <Quack> Randy - it would be nice though
[01/04 - 18:36] <Shattered> Randy, if I may make a comment about your explanation earlier. Something has been bothering me about your logic - not the maths logic, they psychological side...
[01/04 - 18:36] <Randy> then stable them.
[01/04 - 18:36] <Shattered> Do you think your expectation is a little circular, in that you expect people to duel because there's money in it from betting, yet, as you explained, as betting goes up, the average payoff goes into the negatives? That is, nobody will want to duel while the bets are small, and nobody will want to bet when the bets are big.
[01/04 - 18:36] <Quack> for a poor empire to be able to make enough to pay for retraining when he looses
[01/04 - 18:37] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> then i'd have no army
[01/04 - 18:37] <casper`> can we have it so stabled mechs don't count to your empire bv?
[01/04 - 18:37] <Randy> no shattered, i do see your point but i expect it will settle somewhere between
[01/04 - 18:37] <Randy> if i'm a player and see 12 open arenas and low bets on them all ... i'll bet not duel
[01/04 - 18:37] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> i dnt mind betting arena's, as long as u got the ngc prize
[01/04 - 18:37] <casper`> i would really appreciate it coming from a lw empire perspective where the efficient bv count is neccessary
[01/04 - 18:37] <Randy> (unless i just want to duel)
[01/04 - 18:37] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> hey could we have the NGC bet auto when the system opens up to the public
[01/04 - 18:38] <Randy> but if i see no arenas, i'll make one and let everyone bet on me
[01/04 - 18:38] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> that way peeps have a idea where the NGC lies?
[01/04 - 18:38] <Dag-Semi> Randy even if I "duel for fun" at low betting times. I cant afford to loose a 250Mill Assault for the risk of making 200k Nev$ with it. Dueling for fun means I risk something to gain something if I loose my unluck. But if I win I get a gift for my courage.
[01/04 - 18:38] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> well casper`, that wouldnt work out right because that BV is a source of income for that LW empire, it has to take up some space, like infra
[01/04 - 18:38] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> the ngc cash shld go to the winner since he is doing the actual fighting
[01/04 - 18:38] <Boycottingarena|_Damz> not to the ppl who r watching
[01/04 - 18:38] * Boycottingarena|_Damz is now known as Damz
[01/04 - 18:38] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> understand where i'm comming from?
[01/04 - 18:38] <casper`> arden, but dueling will be for fun now... the income gain is minimal
[01/04 - 18:38] <Randy> dag the lost skill point you'll probably get back from the duel anyway. you're not losing much there bud.
[01/04 - 18:38] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> untill you get to the tops
[01/04 - 18:39] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> but the rep
[01/04 - 18:39] <Dag-Semi> Currently I arena and have a double risk. I might loose the mech or win. And then I might win or gain nothing. So dueling got useless.
[01/04 - 18:39] <casper`> true
[01/04 - 18:39] <MadT> true
[01/04 - 18:39] <Shattered> It doesn't seem the equilibirum point would be cover the loss of a mech, if a mech pilot won only 50% of the time...
[01/04 - 18:39] <casper`> so maybe ranking shouldn't be for monetary gain but pride in your skill
[01/04 - 18:39] <Blaze> true
[01/04 - 18:39] <Randy> why are people talking about losing mechs? maybe you don't all know, but you don't actually lose a mech in a duel
[01/04 - 18:39] <Damz> dam it sucks playing nev on 640*640
[01/04 - 18:39] <Randy> just a point of skill.
[01/04 - 18:39] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> not like I duel much, but if i wanna keep my mech up top its for more than bragging rights
[01/04 - 18:40] <Quack> one point to note randy
[01/04 - 18:40] <Dag-Semi> 3 death and its gone
[01/04 - 18:40] <Quack> your example works great on assault mechs
[01/04 - 18:40] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> but you lose rep
[01/04 - 18:40] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> and skill
[01/04 - 18:40] <Quack> but for new players like me who dont have assaults
[01/04 - 18:40] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> and the rep is the hard one to equalize
[01/04 - 18:40] <casper`> retrain them?
[01/04 - 18:40] <Randy> it works on jeeps too
[01/04 - 18:40] <Randy> just dont bet 10 mil is all
[01/04 - 18:40] <Quack> it makes the lighter mech arenas and vehicle arenas ...less desirable
[01/04 - 18:40] <WingedPuma> randy
[01/04 - 18:40] <casper`> dueling stable mechs should have a 1/2 training time period compared to normal units?
[01/04 - 18:40] <Randy> if the NGC bet is 600k ... don't bet it above 3 mil per side
[01/04 - 18:40] <WingedPuma> you say you you dont lose mechs
[01/04 - 18:40] <WingedPuma> but on the third chance you do..
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> randy thats assuming peeps bet on BOTH sides
[01/04 - 18:41] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> well if you've died twice
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> if the bet is one sided
[01/04 - 18:41] <MadT> and if it is timed the mech is unrepaired
[01/04 - 18:41] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> you gotta assume
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> and their is a clear winner
[01/04 - 18:41] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> that mech isnt working out well
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> the winner doesnt get much
[01/04 - 18:41] <Quack> no one ever bets on my o-20 arenas anway
[01/04 - 18:41] <Quack> largest bet ive ever had was 500k. i placed it
[01/04 - 18:41] <Randy> if the bet is one side then the guy who bet the $1 the other way makes a killing
[01/04 - 18:41] <WingedPuma> lol quaCK
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> aye
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> but usually thats a fluke
[01/04 - 18:41] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> and not a recuring theme
[01/04 - 18:41] <WingedPuma> i usually bet 1m on alot of arenas
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> i admit the dark horse view is good
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> but
[01/04 - 18:42] <Randy> trust me on this ... if you flip a coin EVERY TIME YOU BET (don't try to outsmart yourself) to see who to bet on it will work out for you
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> ahh
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> but the odds in the arena system
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> are
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> not
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> 50/50
[01/04 - 18:42] <Randy> they don't have to be snow ... you're digging yourself a hole here, i suggest you step back and work it out :)
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> heh, i optimised a few hunters and my bv went up 4k
[01/04 - 18:42] <casper`> its rng, make it 33/67
[01/04 - 18:42] <casper`> :P
[01/04 - 18:42] <WingedPuma> randy, i know this is off topic but will the class system ever be implemented?
[01/04 - 18:42] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> LOL
[01/04 - 18:43] <Shattered> Shifting statistics don't change the fact that as long as people don't exceed that 5x rule, it still makes money - it only changes who that money goes to.
[01/04 - 18:43] <Dag-Semi> Thx for your time and explanations Randy. Only one last beg. Pls watch the arenas and their usage in the coming days/weeks I have the ungood feeling they might drop as ppl loose fun.
[01/04 - 18:43] <Dag-Semi> And then we would need a tweakening.
[01/04 - 18:43] <casper`> then everyone will start lw'ing each other perhaps
[01/04 - 18:43] <Randy> oh trust me i'll watch them. so far i've seen everyone who bets regularly is ahead
[01/04 - 18:43] <Randy> but i'll keep watching
[01/04 - 18:43] <Quack> randy - i hate to bug you but is there anyway i could get a response to a 2 billion dollar question
[01/04 - 18:43] <Dag-Semi> Thx
[01/04 - 18:43] * Blaze (Java@pcp0010359546pcs.hcksrd01.tn.comcast.net) Quit (Quit)
[01/04 - 18:43] <ilKhan_Arden_Pryde> lw is good
[01/04 - 18:43] <Randy> what question quack?
[01/04 - 18:43] <Tiderius> Thanks for your time, Randy
[01/04 - 18:43] <Damz> betting only helps those who have billions to risk
[01/04 - 18:43] * Dag-Semi waves and vanishes
[01/04 - 18:43] <casper`> love it arden
[01/04 - 18:44] * Dag-Semi (Dag@dag.Users.AfterNET.Org) has left #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:44] <Damz> keeps the rich rich and the poor poor
[01/04 - 18:44] <ilprincipe> Randy - another thing: why do only ppl get money for enrolling and not creating arenas (and only get paid, when actually some1 attacks the arena)?
[01/04 - 18:44] <Randy> someone explain math to damz please
[01/04 - 18:44] <Quack> Randy is the matter about the winning loop resolved
[01/04 - 18:44] <Randy> yes quack, i haven't seen a recurrance of that in some time now. i believe its fixed.
[01/04 - 18:44] <WingedPuma> randy, i know this is off topic but will the class system ever be implemented?
[01/04 - 18:44] <Damz> if they fixed the bugs with the new arena's it wld help too
[01/04 - 18:44] <Damz> im still missing mechs
[01/04 - 18:45] <{WoB}Blane_PCT[NLD]> randy, u know this auto change to 75% maintainance thingy, can you make it so that when you have positive funds you dont have to wait half a RL week before your units skills go from good to pooey
[01/04 - 18:45] <Randy> WP -- eventually yes but we have a matter of 1000 or so bug tickets that we spend liteally 90%+ of our time on
[01/04 - 18:45] <WingedPuma> ouch
[01/04 - 18:45] <ilprincipe> haha :D ... yeah:
[01/04 - 18:45] <ilprincipe> You have won the duel! You have been awarded a prize of $80,091
[01/04 - 18:45] <WingedPuma> you hiring people?
[01/04 - 18:45] <WingedPuma> :D
[01/04 - 18:45] <Quack> Randy - Can i keep hte 2 billion you guys left me?
[01/04 - 18:45] <casper`> randy, so technically, need a hand with bug ticks? i work cheap
[01/04 - 18:45] <WingedPuma> casper works cheap
[01/04 - 18:45] <jointedlimb> how cheap casper
[01/04 - 18:45] <WingedPuma> i work free
[01/04 - 18:45] * {WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus raises hand
[01/04 - 18:45] <jointedlimb> i need some "work" done
[01/04 - 18:45] <Den> lol
[01/04 - 18:45] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> randy what do you think of a mission style arena system?
[01/04 - 18:46] <Randy> hehe quack i doubt it. part of those 1000 tickets pertain to the loop. just becuase the bug is fixed doesn't mean the case is closed.
[01/04 - 18:46] <nX-306> randy what about do some training arenas, evryone can select any mech in game and any skill, just the BV must be close, not win anything, not lose anything... just duel... for fun ?
[01/04 - 18:46] <Quack> ah .
[01/04 - 18:46] <ilprincipe> give ppl who open an arena also some money :p ... when the arena is attack, like when you enroll ...
[01/04 - 18:46] <Quack> thanks for providing feed back on that:)
[01/04 - 18:46] <WingedPuma> NX, that would help people choose their first REAL mech
[01/04 - 18:46] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> ngc ticket sales?
[01/04 - 18:46] <Tiderius> yeah thats a good idea NX
[01/04 - 18:46] * OBITUARY (JB@85-250-59-12.bb.netvision.net.il) has joined #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:46] <Randy> nx i already talked about a simulation style arena. we would LOVE to add that feature and will as soon as we can
[01/04 - 18:46] <ilprincipe> would raise the incentive to creat more arenas :D
[01/04 - 18:46] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> like 50 nev to view arena
[01/04 - 18:47] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> and that goes to the creator
[01/04 - 18:47] <Randy> unfortunately there are 2000 players and some send in like 10 help tickets
[01/04 - 18:47] <Randy> obviously that takes all our time
[01/04 - 18:47] * OBITUARY (JB@85-250-59-12.bb.netvision.net.il) has left #neveron_admin
[01/04 - 18:47] <Remano> just nuke them, problem solved
[01/04 - 18:47] <Randy> if people would close irrelevant tickets, or not send in frivolous stuff in the first place, we would be able to focus on the real problems more easily
[01/04 - 18:47] <MadT> most tickets i wrote cause off the arenas
[01/04 - 18:47] * DestroYer (meteora@bb219-74-176-69.singnet.com.sg) Quit (Quit)
[01/04 - 18:47] <Tiderius> Randy what is the current wait time on tickets?
[01/04 - 18:47] <Shattered> Have a priority system that has a look at how many previous help tickets divided by their time on Nev.
[01/04 - 18:47] <Quack> nod broken mechs from arenas
[01/04 - 18:47] <Randy> depends on the ticket relevance
[01/04 - 18:47] <Quack> were a large source of my bugtickets
[01/04 - 18:47] <Shattered> The longer you've gone without submitting a ticker, the higher the priority their case :P
[01/04 - 18:47] <Quack> not repaired or no weapons:)
[01/04 - 18:48] <WingedPuma> remano, you ever play MechCommander Gold?!
[01/04 - 18:48] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> i have
[01/04 - 18:48] <Remano> nope
[01/04 - 18:48] * Damz (unknown@cpc1-eswd2-6-0-cust37.renf.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[01/04 - 18:48] <Remano> should i?
[01/04 - 18:48] <WingedPuma> kk
[01/04 - 18:48] <WingedPuma> name looked familiar
[01/04 - 18:48] <Tiderius> Randy: Well, what do you consider relevent?
[01/04 - 18:48] <{WoB}Snow_Fox_DPrimus> i like it better then mc2
[01/04 - 18:48] <WingedPuma> SnowFox!? PM me
[01/04 - 18:49] <Randy> i think this is all done here ... conversation is really diverging. I'm going to leave you all now to wallow in misery about not having a simple way to make billions of nevdollars anymore without working for it.
[01/04 - 18:49] <Randy> thanks for listening.
[01/04 - 18:49] * Randy_ (Randy@24-116-167-217.cpe.cableone.net) has left #neveron_admin

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